S1 Ep 2 Becoming A Reading Teacher

Two reading teachers discuss when they felt the magic of unlocking literacy with their students.

Transcript:

1.2 reading teachers lounge podcast episode 2 final

Mary Saghafi: [00:00:00] Hey Shannon, I wanna know when did you become a real reading teacher? Okay, this is the Reading Teachers Lounge where listeners can eavesdrop on professional conversations between elementary reading. Teachers we're passionate about literacy and strive to find strategies to reach all learners. Shannon and Mary are neighbors who realize that they were literacy soul sisters at a dinner in their Atlanta neighborhood.

Once they started chatting about reading, they haven't really stopped. Come join the conversation.

Shannon Betts: Hello and welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge podcast. I'm Shannon Beds and I've been teaching for over 16 years. My specialty is locating the missing pieces in students' reading, development, and choosing just write activities to fill those gaps. You can find me online@readingdevelopment.com and at RD G development on Twitter and Instagram.[00:01:00]

Mary Saghafi: Hi, I'm Mary sfi. I'm a reading tutor. I have taught all elementary grades. I have Orton-Gillingham training, and I've been helping students with reading issues and dyslexia for a while now. I love talking all things teaching. I believe that humor goes a long way when asking students and teachers to do hard things.

I'm excited to share with Shannon and learn along with all of you. So Shannon. I really wanna know, when did you become a real reading teacher? You know, when was the first time you felt like you were a reading teacher that could make the magic happen? When did you feel like you could see, when did you see the growth from your students?

And what was the difference in your instruction, in your approach? Okay,

Shannon Betts: well mine is an interesting story. Um. It's a little bit long, but we've got time, so I'll share it and then I want to hear about yours too. Sure. So I, it was not during my first year of teaching, [00:02:00] it was not during my second year of teaching.

It was not during my third year of teaching. It was actually my sixth year of teaching, and the second year I was a reading specialist. So I went through an entire year of reading, reading specialist without actually knowing. How to teach kids how to read. I left college and spent my first few years teaching in the classroom and my first year as a reading specialist, knowing how to help decent readers become better.

I left college prepared for that, and I used that, those strategies effectively. My first few years of teaching enough to earn me a reading specialist job position. However. Over those years, those first five years of my teaching, there were certain students that I did not reach, kids who I like to call it the cat in the hat test.

They couldn't read the cat in the hat and I really didn't know what to do with them. They were brand [00:03:00] new, um, arrivals to America, so they were brand new, um, students. To English and didn't have many, much oral English, much less reading English. Um, they were also students who would come into my third grade class just having missed basic reading skills when they were in kindergarten, first and second grade, and I really didn't know how to help them early in my career, to be honest.

I usually stuck them on starfall.com. This was in the early two thousands and it didn't have, this was. Yeah, pre teachers, pay teachers. I

Mary Saghafi: know the star fall.com. I also may have fallen into that trap once or twice. I am well aware you are not alone, I'm sure. I

Shannon Betts: mean, that was just the strategy at the time.

Just stick the kids on star fall.com and teach the rest of the class. Agreed,

Mary Saghafi: agreed.

Shannon Betts: And I call those the kids who got away. We can talk about them in a future episode. Yeah, because they still haunt me. I hope that they learned how to read in later. Years with other teachers, but they didn't learn to read when they were in my care during the first five years of my teaching.

That teacher guilt is [00:04:00] real. It is. I can tell you their names 12 years later. Aw. But I did finally have a moment when it all clicked, and it was during my sixth year of teaching. Like I said, the second year I was a reading specialist and it was an interesting year because I. Was teaching a kindergarten reading group and then immediately going to a fifth grade reading group, and I had to literally transform myself in the hallway as I'm pushing my cart down the hall because there's a certain way you speak to kindergartners and a certain way you speak to fifth graders.

And one day I sat down with the kind. Fifth graders said, hello kids, what are we gonna learn today? And they said, miss bets, we're not the kindergartners. So, um, and I would also kind of had to train my brain to go, okay, what do the kindergartners need to learn? What do the fifth graders need to learn? And I would switch and my brain as I'm rolling my cart through the hallway, but during the time, the day that the moment [00:05:00] clicked was when.

I was giving the devil's test and I had to give it to the entire school as part of the assessment team. And the devil's assessment had many different tests. It had an oral reading fluency where we just listened to the kids, read passages. It had a nonsense word fluency, so that was testing their sight words.

There was an initial sound fluency test where we could see if they knew the first sound in words, just using pictures. And then the test in particular that really helped me the most on this day was the phonemic. Segmenting fluency test the PSF. Mm-hmm. And in that test we were seeing if students could take apart sounds orally.

Mm-hmm. So I would say a word like fish and the students would have to say, eh, not looking at any pictures, not looking at any words. Just playing with Sounds out loud. That's right. And I was giving that test to the kindergartners that day, and then I had to go to my fifth grade reading group. And a lot of students in that group were, could not read [00:06:00] Cat in the Hat.

They were at that perr pre-primer level, and so on a lark, I opened up a demo account and I said, I wonder if these fifth graders can take this test. I wonder if they can pass this kindergarten skill. I knew what the expectation of a score would be for kindergartners, and I wanted to see could the fifth graders do that?

Some of them could, the ones that were in my higher group, but my lowest readers, the ones that could not read Cat in the Hat that were really the non-readers at that point, they could not pass the PSF test. I said, fish, and they couldn't tell me the sounds in it.

Mary Saghafi: Mm-hmm.

Shannon Betts: And then I did it backwards where I said ish.

And then I tried to have them tell me what word it was. Just to orally blend and say fish. Mm-hmm. And they couldn't do that either. And that was when it clicked. That was the aha moment, because I realized that it didn't matter about the fifth grade [00:07:00] standards or the fourth grade standards or the third grade standards.

If I wanted to teach these kids how to read while they were on my case load as their reading specialist, I had to go back to where they currently are at their level. I had to find what skills were missing. Even if it was a kindergarten skill and at that moment, I really internalized that that was the barrier to them learning to read that for whatever reason, they didn't learn some of these things in kindergarten and first grade, and that's what was holding them back.

Mary Saghafi: Yeah.

Shannon Betts: From learning to read

Mary Saghafi: those foundational skills. SI had a teacher in seventh grade and I will never forget, but she would always say, if you don't have those foundational skills, you will have a crumbling foundation. And guess what? The house will do. Crumble. Crumble. And so if you don't go back to the basics and really fill in the gaps of the foundation, no matter who you're talking about, really, [00:08:00] that's the essential part.

I applaud you for going back and figuring that out. That's really

Shannon Betts: impressive. Well, it, that moment sort of found me, but it was just a test that I experimented at the time and so I sort of used that class as a laboratory, that fifth grade group, and I said, well, I wonder what other skills they're missing.

And so I actually went to my colleagues that were effective kindergarten teachers and said, what are all the skills that they need to learn? In kindergarten, what kind of tests do you give? And I gave all the tests to the students and I taught 'em all those skills. And then as soon as we were done with all those, we went to the first grade.

I went to the first grade teachers and I asked them the same thing. And I looked at the kindergarten and first grade standards and just sort of followed along. In order to see what they needed to learn, and I tried to bring 'em as high as I could

Mary Saghafi: mm-hmm.

Shannon Betts: And go through as many of the skills that were at the lower grades during that school year that I had them.

Mm-hmm. In fifth grade. So fast forward to the end of that school [00:09:00] year and those fifth graders ended up making about two years worth of growth. So I got them to close to a second grade reading level, and I felt like that was. A pretty good start.

Mary Saghafi: It's a good start. And it's, especially, I know why this is your key story.

It's because it was the beginning of when you knew you were doing the right thing, that you were getting them and meeting them right at their level, right? Yes,

Shannon Betts: yes. And so it was almost part of my teaching philosophy at that point, and not just a teaching practice of just go to where the students are, find what they need and give it to them.

Mary Saghafi: I think another really good phrase that I heard, um. A really smart colleague of mine say is that when you. Teaching reading, um, is difficult. We all already know that. But if you're reading easy text, easy text makes reading easier. And when, when you, I, we used to tell that to our fifth grade students together.

We were teaching together at the time, and [00:10:00] you know, they would look at it and they would feel disappointed that they weren't reading, you know, more advanced text and they were working in our resource room together. I, I think it's true. You know, there's a time for learning facts and there's a time for, you know, having the comprehension and understanding and sometimes there's a big gap between what you can understand and what you can comprehend and then really what you can do independently and read.

And so sometimes you need to go back down to the basics.

Shannon Betts: Yes. And I will say for I, starting from that moment on and 10 years later. I'm still doing the same thing, so I, I meet the kids where they are, whatever level that is, and some teachers have said that they've seen the students feel a little embarrassed about reading the Easy books and things like that.

I have not found that the case in any of the 10 years I've been teaching. Mm-hmm. The students that I've worked with have been so appreciative to finally be able to do work that's appropriate for them, [00:11:00] and finally have books that they can read that I use the phrase unlocking literacy. It feels like the door's been unlocked and the world of books has been open for them.

And overall I have just. Had the students become excited and um, been appreciative,

Mary Saghafi: um, they gain their confidence, right? Yes. And once that confidence starts to come, then everything kind of builds upon that too, because. They feel like they're also doing the right thing now they know that they are on track, so to speak, or, or whatever it is.

But I do think that in the beginning when you're reading easy texts, you can remind students that easy text makes reading easier. Yes. And then you build on that. You can't stay at that level for too long. Have, but they're used to it being

Shannon Betts: so hard that it feels, it feels refreshing. To have something that feels easy for them and,

Mary Saghafi: and then that's when the magic does happen, right?

Yes. It's, it's, it's that key that I'm engaged, I'm responsible [00:12:00] for my work. I can move forward, I can be. I, I am a reader now. Yes. They, they have joined the reading club. Exactly. I use that phrase sometimes with the students too.

Shannon Betts: Oh,

Mary Saghafi: my friend just said that about her first grader and I just, uh, I, I've had forgotten that joy.

But when it comes from a parent for the first time, it is that Reader's Club is a special club and we wanna invite everybody to that club. Exactly. Exactly. Everybody needs to be a card

Shannon Betts: carrying member. So what about you? When did you finally have that aha moment as a reading teacher? I the,

Mary Saghafi: a lot of times when Shannon and I share stories, we find that there are so many similarities.

It's almost scary sometimes, which is why we're not the same

Shannon Betts: person though. No.

Mary Saghafi: One of the reasons we really wanted to just start talking and sharing with you all is because we have these moments that are. Like almost serendipitous at times. And so when you, you know, were so brutally honest about the fact that you didn't feel like you [00:13:00] were a good teacher until year six.

I also have been in that same boat where I taught kindergarten at first. Um, and I had some really special supportive teachers and, um. What actually I wanted to do was go on and get my master's degree because I felt like there were a couple kids that I wasn't reaching when I was teaching regular ed kindergarten.

So I went on and I got my master's degree, and when I got my first job as a special ed teacher, I found it was really, really, really hard. And every day I felt like I was kind of up against a wall. And sometimes that was behaviors and sometimes it was other things, but mostly it was. Just helping students to make progress in general.

And so, um, like you, I went to the smartest teacher of the year in our school who happened to be the kindergarten teacher across the hall. And I,

Shannon Betts: kindergarten and teachers are underappreciated. Let me just say that. Everybody thinks that centers and coloring, but to prepare [00:14:00] kids to know how to read takes a really special person.

So thank you Kindergarten teachers.

Mary Saghafi: Absolutely. Kindergarten was one of my favorite years to teach, but I will not take all of the credit for those years at all. I had some super great supportive teachers in that environment. Um, but the, the kindergarten teacher that I sat down with year three, um, she said she was really kind in her response and it was almost be gentle with yourself.

It will come some days are hard. Um. Um, and then, you know, what actually happened was a couple weeks later I met my kind of rockstar cohort, um, from a different school. Uh, she sort of recruited me to come join her other school, which was lovely. And we both did Orton Gillingham training together. Okay. And she more than any other person in my teaching career.

Was scrappy. She knew how to find the resources. She was really smart. Um, almost like the mentality of a lawyer where she would just [00:15:00] keep digging and searching and finding the best fit for things. Um, and I found that she was the person who showed me how to keep digging and how to find the foundational cracks.

Love that In digging in the readers. It was amazing. And you know, we laughed and we joked and we, um. I, I was really, I'm from Cleveland originally, and this was about the time when LeBron left Cleveland for the first time. And, you know, so I said, I'm taking my talents elsewhere. We're going to, you know, X elementary school.

Um, and it was like my move to Miami to teach with my, my teaching friends. And, um, it was, that was kind of comical at the time. Uh, the truth is, um, she really gave me kind of the confidence to dig a little bit deeper and start to use my skills. Um, and so of course when you reach that moment in your career where you are kind of, you know, just [00:16:00] like hanging on by a thread, I think that's when you really, you know, dig deep and you figure out what it is.

So my story about. Finding the magic, I think was one of my toughest classes. I had five boys all had a diagnosis of A DHD and they would literally like vibrate in their seats. You could just see it. They were all with you at the same time. All with me at the same time. All had difficulties with reading.

Um, and they were all best buds Oh boy. Which was teaming up against, it was. I, I have to say some of my favorite kids to teach are naughty little boys because it just intrigues me how their mind works and the schemes that they come up with. And so these boys gave me a run for my money, but I was not about to let them, you know, over overtake everything.

I thought I'm gonna get these kids to, you know, get it together. And I was so fortunate to loop with them. So luckily I was really able to see their progress. But the point is, is that these. Poor little [00:17:00] boys, you know, needed to have some one-on-one time with me and work on Dibbles. I'm a fan also of the Dibbles test.

In this case, I would do a weekly oral reading fluency with them and we would chart progress and. It was so difficult to really engage in this quality one-on-one time when I had these boys who were so, um, you know, they had such difficulties with attention and focusing and so what it really came down to was each and every one of them knew that it was their special time to have some one-on-one time with me, and I would really work on, you know.

Stating specifically what I was proud of them for working on throughout the week. And we would have these conversations and we would start to talk about, I noticed this part during the week was easier for you. I noticed that you kind of struggled on this part. And I would explicitly point out their strengths and weaknesses.

And pretty soon I gave them more of the ability to. Kind of [00:18:00] self-diagnose how the week went for them. Wow. And I would give them that ability. And so it just so happened that my principal walked in the one day, and of course they're bouncing off the walls, but. She started to notice that the meaningful conversation that we had, even though they were standing wiggling, doing their work, all of the routines that kind of paid off, getting that quality one-on-one time.

I could just give a look to some of the other kids across the room and they would get back on track. And my principal started to notice this, but then she started to kind of edge a little bit closer, and what she noticed was that. The student that I was working with could say, oh, I missed this word and I missed this word.

I thought it said, instead of the word said, I thought it said, uh, you know, a different word. And, and he would say, but now I see again. Oh yeah, that makes sense. And, and it would go back and actually like self-correct and start [00:19:00] talking through some of the patterns that we had learned. I knew in that point because my principal pointed it out probably more than anything, was that I really was helping them advocate and really engage and take ownership in their learning.

And, um, I, I know that that's definitely true for reading and for other subjects. My specialty is reading, so this is what it was. But I knew I finally had the tools and the language to. Teach these kids that their brains worked in a different way and then they could also start to advocate for themselves and you know, at third grade.

I think that that's a pretty key moment. And

Shannon Betts: that also sounds like the foundation of leading to you where the things that you're doing today. Yeah. As an advocate, but. Um, when you were describing those special moments when the kids were reading with you, it almost sounded like you were a reading coach and you were coaching them on their reading and then helping them analyze their own reading and building metacognition where [00:20:00] they can think about their own thinking.

Mary Saghafi: Well, and that's, that's really what it comes down to. You know, metacognition is a big word that, you know, I think that sometimes gets thrown around by administrators, but it's not that difficult. What it really is, is that they're thinking about what they're thinking about. And I think, and if

Shannon Betts: that student did that in front of your principal and said, I miss this, this is what I was thinking, that's, that's, that's huge.

That's very high level thinking,

Mary Saghafi: but it's also really doable. But I think that the key takeaway is you need. As a, as a reading teacher, part of your job is to be diagnostic and figuring out where those holes are. So, um, I'm now a good teacher because I know what it is to diagnose the different reading problems that my kids have.

The only way I can do that is listen to them read.

Shannon Betts: Yes.

Mary Saghafi: And so all of these things, you know, that I was able to do with this small group in this one hour throughout the school year, um, you know. It, it took a lot of work, but I [00:21:00] knew that I had to get really back down to basics and really stick to my routines and not get derailed or, or deterred because I have plenty of students that I could also name are the ones that got away or you know, the ones that I had to, not had to, but I defaulted and used Starfall because I saw other teachers using that and I needed to focus my efforts on an another.

Shannon Betts: The bubble kids or some of the kids it was, that would might make more progress. Exactly.

Mary Saghafi: So, you know, I think it when reading clicks and when you know you're doing the right thing. You can see it in the kids. That's what really the click part is. Yes. And when they join the club, it's, it's helping them take ownership for their own engagement and reading.

And there's a lot of parts to reading. We're gonna definitely break it down in other episodes, and I'm gonna teach you a lot of other strategies about, you know, how, what and why all these things are important. Um, [00:22:00]

Shannon Betts: Mary and I talk sometimes about Swiss cheese as like the reading continuum of. You know, what holes do they have?

What little things is the reader missing from kindergarten or first grade or second grade or third grade? And they might have gotten one thing, right? They might have gotten the digraphs when they needed to, but they didn't get the, you know, ending blends or something, or just whatever. So we've, we've learned how to unders.

Understand the continuum of skills all the way through the different levels to kind of meet a reader at this point and know what they need. And we want to share all of that with you.

Mary Saghafi: And we will.

Shannon Betts: And I was fortunate to have so many years teaching as a reading specialist. I'm currently back in the classroom and applying all this to my homeroom, but I have been a reading specialist.

All the way from kindergarten to fifth grade, and so six different years. I know the reading standards at all, all six of those grade levels. And so that's helped me pinpoint the holes of the Swiss cheese for what students need at whatever level they currently are.

Mary Saghafi: I think [00:23:00] one of the things that, um, Shannon started talking about was in college she felt prepared to teach children, um, who were decent readers and help them to become.

Better readers. And I think that that is very true. I think that a lot of college prep courses do teach that, um, those foundational skills for teachers. But the problem is, is that you don't remember learning to read. You can't teach someone to read the same way that you learn to read. Um, a lot of parents attempt it and you know.

Uh, it works on occasion with typical readers who, you know, are not struggling. But when you have a struggling reader, and this is what we, Shannon had to mentioned, she said that she wasn't prepared to teach a non-reader to read and neither was I, and I had a master's degree in special education, but I was just looking back at my, um, transcripts and what some of the courses that I took.

I, I took the courses. Yes, [00:24:00] I did my best I got A's in those courses. Um, but when, you know, when it meets the pavement, it's, it's really difficult. Yeah.

Shannon Betts: Just the question, how do you teach someone how to read? Especially how do you teach a struggling reader how to read? We're gonna be sharing the answer to that question as we go through this podcast, and we're gonna have a lot of guests.

That we want to answer that question too, and we want to hear it from you guys, because I still learn new things. Mm-hmm. Even this far in my career, and my favorite moment, I think I said it last episode, was when I get a student that all of my other strategies that I've used previously don't work, and I have to try something new and I have to come up with something new just to reach that one reader, and then I add that to my toolbox.

Mary Saghafi: I, I love that too. It's always this constant. Search. Um, and, and that's one of the reasons why I really do love, um, what I do in working with students with dyslexia and helping parents. [00:25:00] Um, I wanna mention one more thing, and this is sort of our sage wisdom takeaway. Um, I think it's really interesting that both of us were doing Dibbles.

When we were talking about working with our kids, you know, we were both being prescriptive and listening to our students read. So I'm gonna suggest that the takeaway today is listen to your students read. Um, I think it's so important to see what difficulties they're having, and you can only do that when you're listening to them.

Um, and I also think that having that dedicated one-on-one time, even if it's just for a few minutes, um. So that they don't use their evasive skills to disguise that they're not struggling. Oh, they're so good at those coping skills.

Shannon Betts: They're so good at those coping skills. A lot of students could be in your rooms.

Hiding the fact, hiding the shameful fact that they're non-reader. So like Mary said, listen to them read. Can they read Cat in the Hat? That basic book. And then [00:26:00] also as you're listening to them read, that builds that relationship that Mary built with her students as she was their coach. And the students know that you're with them, you're listening to them, you care.

Mary Saghafi: I

Shannon Betts: mean,

Mary Saghafi: I think the best thing is. Students who are struggling, do you know what they're best at? Hiding it? Yes. They focus so much energy on hiding it. Um, so they mimic reading behaviors. And, and maybe we should do a whole episode about what are those hiding behaviors, because I have a huge list. I do too.

Um, yeah. So, okay. So let's help them build courage and give them your undivided attention. Listen to them, read to you. That's our takeaway

Shannon Betts: for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you wanna keep listening, leave a review. So our podcast will keep going and show up in search engines for other teachers to find.

And that's it. Thank you. Thank [00:27:00] you.