S8 E 2 Treasured Stories

In this inspiring conversation, hosts Shannon and Mary welcome beloved children’s author Kate DiCamillo to the Reading Teachers Lounge. Together, they explore the heart behind her storytelling—from the lasting impact of Because of Winn-Dixie to the way empathy and hope guide her writing. Kate reflects on the joy of reading aloud, the role of animals in her books, and the special bond that connects readers to stories. This episode offers wisdom, warmth, and a reminder of why stories matter so deeply in the classroom and beyond.

Episode 8.2 Treasured Stories with Kate DiCamillo

0:00 Introduction to the Reading Teachers Lounge

00:40 Support the Podcast: Buy Me a Coffee

01:16 Season Eight Begins with Kate DiCamillo

01:56 Kate DiCamillo's Writing Journey

03:05 The Impact of 'Because of Winn-Dixie'

03:47 Complex Themes in Children's Literature

08:11 The Tale of Despereaux: An Unlikely Hero

09:27 Character Development and Animal Protagonists

11:28 Exploring 'Ferris' and Family Dynamics

15:25 The Power of Vocabulary in Storytelling

21:20 Timelessness in Kate DiCamillo's Books

23:33 Exclusive Bonus Episodes for Subscribers

24:42 A Classroom Moment with Kate DiCamillo

27:44 Navigating Favorite Characters and Future Stories

29:32 Encouragement for Struggling Readers

33:47 The Magic of Reading Aloud

37:06 Balancing Hope and Realism in Stories

42:58 Connecting Characters Across Books

47:01 Gratitude for Teachers and Librarians

51:05 Final Thoughts and Community


Transcript:

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Correction suggestions are appreciated, and we welcome you to notify us of any errors spotted by contacting us at team@readingteacherslounge.com. Thank you for your support and understanding.


8.2 Treasured Stories with Kate DiCamillo -

Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge, the podcast where you can learn on the go by listening in. As Mary and I share what really works with our reading students,

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Shannon Betts: Welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge. We're early in the new season, season eight here at the Reading Teachers Lounge. And Mary and I we're ha we're fulfilling a bucket list item right now and we are speaking with one of our favorite children's authors of all time, and we are just so honored to have a conversation with you, Kate di Camillo, because did I say your name right?

Kate DiCamillo: I say it, DeMelo. DeMelo. Okay, so the Ls? Yeah. In, in the, in the, in Italian you say the Ls. So, yeah. Okay.

Shannon Betts: Thank you for that. I, I think I've been saying it wrong when I've been reading books. That's fine. For the classes all these years. But Kate,

Kate DiCamillo: there's really no wrong. There's no wrong Shannon. Yeah. No. Okay.

Shannon Betts: Well if, if people don't know you tell, tell us about [00:02:00] yourself.

Kate DiCamillo: I am somebody who has been writing now, I was thinking about this this morning. I'm 61 years old and I started writing when I was 30. And so I've been writing. For half my life, which is just unbelievable to me. And the first book that was published is a novel called Because of Winn-Dixie.

And that novel is now 25 years old. And it's served as kind of this golden doorway for me getting to. More books for kids, connect with readers, connect with librarians and teachers and parents. And it was just this great gift. So I don't know what the official total is. Now, kids will always ask this, but I think I have 30 something books [00:03:00] out in the world and I'm working on more.

Shannon Betts: I was, so when you said, I didn't realize that Because of Winn-Dixie was written that many years ago. But actually it makes sense because I read it to my first year teaching class, which was a third grade class, and my, that year, that school year was 2002 to 2003. There you go. You were So it was a relatively new book at that time.

Yes. But the students loved it. And I still know teachers to this day who are reading it to their second or third year classes, and I was impressed with the. Complex themes. Like it actually, like a student brought up addiction and alcoholism in a private conversation with me. So we were able to have, you know, like a kind of teachable moment and a counseling kind of moment in the classroom that, that book and what happened, and it opened up some dialogue.

So I appreciate that you include such complex themes like loss and addiction and a lot of other things in your books. Do you do that on purpose?

Kate DiCamillo: I don't, I have, [00:04:00] I have no idea what, what I'm doing when I write, and that was particularly true with Because of Winn-Dixie because it was the first book. And so I, I just, I, I go by instinct and you know.

To the reverse of what you just said, Shannon. I als, I often get called out for darker themes for bringing in things that are distressing. And my argument in favor of putting those things in a children's book is that kids live in the same world that we do. And they see what's going on around them.

And and kids will take what they need from a story and they'll take things in a subterranean way too. Not it's it, and that's the beautiful thing about story. And I have, I got this in my head early on. I must have read it somewhere that [00:05:00] Katherine Patterson said it. That when you write for children, you're duty bound to end with hope.

And, and I always keep that in mind. But, but life is gonna get in there and life is hard. It's beautiful and it's hard. And I think we do a disservice for children if we pretend that it's not difficult sometimes. So.

Mary Saghafi: I just, I was so excited when I first actually was able to share that you were going to be on our podcast because in my, both of my girls' minds, you are the author that their teachers have used as like a gateway to really enjoying books.

Hmm.

Kate DiCamillo: Especially what a compliment. What a compliment.

Mary Saghafi: I, I truly mean it. My first grader last year was reading, the Tale of Despereaux, and it was the first time that she felt really excited and comfortable about. You know, engaging in a novel and [00:06:00] that was first grade and now in second grade, and she's just like so eager again.

And so I would say that that's one of the gateways. And then my oldest daughter still claims that Because of Winn-Dixie is one of her favorite books, and she is. Bibliofile to the degree of all, she's always, there are books stacked all over our house, open on coffee tables. She's always got a book in her hand.

And so she was just so excited to ask you a few questions. So if it's okay, it's kind of an honor for me to play a question that she has for you.

 

Kate DiCamillo: Oh, I'll get to hear her voice.

Mary Saghafi:You'll get to hear her voice. Oh, beautiful. Yes. Yeah. So this is my older daughter. She's in fifth grade. So here's her question.

Mary's daughter: For you is where do you get your ideas for some of the more popular books? Like Because of Winn-Dixie or The Tale of Desperaux?

You know, it, it is always difficult. What, what's your, your daughter's name? Nina. Nina. Nina. I'm gonna [00:07:00] say this directly to you now. It. It's sometimes difficult to say exactly where an idea came from.

I can answer it at great length with both books with, because of Winn-Dixie and Tale of Despereax and and it's, I answer in retrospect, so it's not like. I sit down knowing what I'm gonna do. But I can see where the idea came from when I look back, if that makes sense. So, Because of Winn-Dixie was written, during my second winter in Minnesota, and I grew up in Florida. And so it is very much a book about longing for the South. It's also, it was the first protracted period in my life where I'd been without a dog. I had no access to a dog. I was living in an apartment where dogs weren't allowed and I didn't know anybody with a [00:08:00] dog.

And so the book, allowed me, this is one of the beautiful things about writing and reading to make up a dog, to have the best dog I could think of. And, and that was Winn-Dixie.

 Despereaux, a totally different journey there. The initial idea came from my best friend's son I was visiting. It was pretty soon after when Dixie had been published.

He was eight years old at the time, and he was a huge reader and had never been that impressed with me before. But here I was suddenly with my name on a book. I mean, he was just like, so his name's Luke. So Luke followed me everywhere for that visit. And right before I was ready to leave, he asked if he could have a private word with me in his room.

And I'm like, sure. So we went into his room and I'm like, what's up? He said, I've got a great idea for a book. It's the story of an unlikely [00:09:00] hero with exceptionally large ears. So I, I loved the phrase unlikely hero. Luke didn't say a mouse, but that was where all of that started and, and I had no idea where it would end up, but it started with me having that conversation with Luke who's now a grownup and a history teacher.

And a writer himself.

Mary Saghafi: So  I think that one of the themes that's really common in your books is that the main characters. Or characters that play an essential role happen to be animals. And just hearing that, that kind of bit from you, that makes so much sense to me now. It seems like you are a true animal lover and you really sense that about animals who are part of the family, who are really essential, especially through the eyes of children.

And so I, I really love that part. Can you comment any more about your, your character development that [00:10:00] way?

Kate DiCamillo: You know, it, it's funny because in the beginning, I mean, it's, it's become laughable now because I can't think of a book that I've written that doesn't have an animal. And, and it's not always that the animal is the protagonist, but it, I don't think I've written a book that doesn't have an animal in it.

And again, it's not a conscious thing. I mean, I'm aware of it now, like when an animal shows up, I'm like, oh boy. Here I am with another animal. But I don't intend to do it. And as much as I can understand it in myself, it is born of that love for animals. I wanted to be a vet when I was a kid, and I would've been a really lousy one, and I would've failed at it spectacularly.

I don't have the heart for it. But. So that love of animals and also the books that I read when I was a kid I, I still love Paddington, you know, this animal protagonist Stewart [00:11:00] Little The Mouse and the Motorcycle, you know, so it's just like, it's a shortcut for me to what it was like to feel like a kid.

And I do think also that when we read. All of us were a little bit more likely to let our guard down for an animal sometimes than we are for each other. And so, I mean, I don't do it consciously, but I'm aware of that effect, I guess. I love that

Mary Saghafi: I would. So over the summer, our family also read Ferris, which is your newest book that's out.

And Ferris has mostly main characters who are humans, but one of my favorite characters happens to be the dog. The dog is such a lovely Boomer, the. Comic relief in a lot of,

Shannon Betts: I loved Billy Jackson, but I'm a be player. I love

Kate DiCamillo: Billy Jackson too. I Miss. Billy Jackson. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry, sorry. Okay. Yes, boomer.

Yeah.

Mary Saghafi: It's okay. So I think that Boomer is just such a, a lovable [00:12:00] character in this book of. Of kind of misfits, which is, is so lovely. I was laughing out loud reading Ferris. I thought it was just so humorous. It talks of a family's dynamics and it kind of reminded me you don't always get to pick your family there.

They, you get who you get. And in this book, it kind of takes some of their quirky behaviors and turns them into kind of endearing pieces and, and oddball pieces, but in a, in such a comical, loving way. So I, I enjoyed Ferris tremendously. Oh, thank you.

Shannon Betts: Mary. The Pinky character reminded me of someone we both know and we will say the name after we're done on recording, but I bet you know who I, I'm talking about

Mary Saghafi: it's a shared, a, a shared student.

Shannon Betts: Do you do, do you know someone like Pinky? 'cause that was

like a very three dimensional character.

Kate DiCamillo: No,I don't know anybody like Pinky, but like Pinky is one of those characters [00:13:00] that you know, I don't, I don't. I don't outline and I don't, I really don't know what's gonna happen. But there are occasionally characters like Pinky who are like, what?

You know, they, they come, they enter in and then it is a challenge from that point on. And it was so true with Pinky not to let her take over the whole novel

or the whole world really. I can imagine. Yeah.

And, and I mean, it was so much fun to write her and. And also it was Fonda writer and it, and you know, I'm such a.

Stay in the lines kind of person. You know, I'm, I was always like, what do I do to do it right? How do I get an A? How do I get, so you're a Ferris. I'm a Ferris. Okay. And I'm a Raymie and Raymie Nightingale, that's me. I'm just always, always worried about how to do it right? And so, pinky [00:14:00] was so much fun to like watch that part of there must be a part of me that has, wants to be that way.

And it was the same with speaking to Raymond when I Beverly Te Penske as another character that, you know, I always admired that kind of person who just was fierce and refused to do things the way that you were supposed to do, but was tender too. So.

Mary Saghafi: I, I like that so many of your characters are, are one way, but also, and yes, because I think no one is just one dimensional and, and the characters are not.

And I think that the full circle swing, especially of Pinky and Ferris's relationship towards the end of the book, it was just so heartwarming to me to see how. As frustrating and as much as Pinky kind of makes Ferris feel uncomfortable the true love that they share as sisters really comes through and it just, ugh.

[00:15:00] It was really great for both of my girls to see. So right now they are 10 and seven and so though that age is really kind of tender and they walk this fine line of not even love and hate, but just annoyance and, and endearment. And so, anyway, I thought, I thought that that was played out so well.

And then what I really wanna comment on, and I think that our teaching teacher listeners are really going to. Be enamored with is the vocabulary that you include in all of your books is so impressive. But for me, I truly, you said

Shannon Betts: enamored. I can hear Billy Jackson going e and a and then, and then Ferris defining it.

Mary Saghafi: I love it. Yes. It's so exciting when when characters who are children in the books can model, sort of what, what teachers are really hoping students will get from it. So the teacher in the, in the story Farris really develops a love of language for her students. And those students are Ferris and Billy.

[00:16:00] And so throughout the book, they're constantly finding words and vocabulary words and defining and spelling those words throughout the book. And a lot of those vocabulary words are. So enriching to this story because they really are accurately depicting the characters. So Nina, my daughter also has another question that is related to that, so I'm gonna play it real quick.

Because I think that she is an aspiring writer and she really wants to know you know, some inspiration for that.

Mary's daughter: I would like to ask. I know you use a lot of really good vocabulary words in your writing. Do you have a special source for finding vocabulary words?

Kate DiCamillo: Hmm.

That's really, really interesting because I don't, I have this, I mean, it's really, no one has ever asked the question quite that way before, you know? And all of the [00:17:00] books have. I mean, I, I interact more directly with the vocabulary in this one, right? Yes. But all of the books have words that if you were you know, doing reading level and all of that, that technically you shouldn't put in.

And no one has ever told me, mercifully, no one has ever said, don't do that. The thing is. I love words and I, I feel like if, and I remember doing this as a kid and I still do it as an adult. I find a word and I love it. I carry it around with me and if, and, and I find it in a text, and I, I still go to the actual physical dictionary if I don't know what it, what it means.

And I feel like readers can do that too. I, I feel like you're [00:18:00] learning about the world around you when you're that age and and you, it remember that moment. Maybe this gets to it best in Ferris, where Ferris is so grateful and kind of turned inside out by the notion that she has the word. To describe Mrs.

Milk's sadness and it is bereft and she's so grateful to her for giving her the word that helps her understand how she feels. It's kind of like a convoluted kind of, and, and that's how words seem to me, like containers. That we can hand each other, you know, that make us containers for the human

Shannon Betts: experience,

Kate DiCamillo: right?

Help us understand each other, help us understand ourselves better. [00:19:00] So all of which is to say, I don't. Go looking for those words. I carry those words inside of me and I get to hand them to the reader. And they're, they're a gift to the reader and they're, and they're also a gift to me as I'm putting them on the page because they help me understand the story that I'm telling.

Does that make sense?

Mary Saghafi: I think that was beautifully stated and I think that it, from my visualization as I'm thinking about the characters in specifically in Ferris, it's almost as though they walk through the book and I can just see these word bubbles just popping up on top of their you know, as they walk and carry through the book.

And I imagine, you know, as a teacher. I have a student who I'm homeschooling and I hope to teach FERRIS to her this year. And I'm imagining that we create all of the characters and as we read through the book, we're adding to their containers of feelings and containers [00:20:00] and, and building up vocabulary and then having genuine conversations about do you know anyone else who modeled this type of behavior or can you, I imagine a different experience that we could also relate to this.

Character. So I think that it just provides this really great springboard for, for helping to really develop deep characterization. So I have to thank you for that. Well,

Kate DiCamillo: and also, you know, in listening to you talk about that, ultimately it, it gets where. We all wanna go what we feel instinctually what we know from science now, that whole thing about empathy, it's like that.

We understand other people better through those words and stories, and we understand ourselves better and we're moved to mercy for each other because, you know, it's like, it's, it's, you know, it makes me think of Depro and when the Princess [00:21:00] Pea asks Miggory Sow, what do you want? And just that moment of empathy and instead of.

Judging each other all the time. You know, that's what literature and words help us do.

Shannon Betts: Mig’s they, cauliflower ears. That's like, like I always connect. Yeah. Bless Miggory Sow. Yeah. So one of the things I was thinking when I was reading Ferris first off, I was regretting that I'd ever put a video game in front of my students because of because in front of my own children.

Because I felt like their childhood was very different than Ferris and Billy's. Although Ferris and Billy's childhood experience very much related to mine as like a Gen X person growing up in the eighties. And so a lot of your books still feel timeless, you know? And I appreciate that. And how do you balance writing for the more modern children today with creating something that feels universal for everybody?

Do you purposely keep out those electronics and things like that?

Kate DiCamillo: [00:22:00] It's another thing that I do not think about. At all. And it's always this thing of trying to just be true to the story and the characters and not, not, you know, I have I haven't consciously stayed away from technology but it's interesting because.

You know, Ferris is probably, I mean, there are s and h green stamps in there, so it's, you know, it's probably closer to my time. There's a, there's a, i, I grew up in the seventies but. I, I find that I'm more and more pulled to fairytales because again, of that timeless nature. But I'm never pushing against technology.

I'm just trying to tell the story that I've been given to tell. Does that make sense? And, and, you know, we had so much, I, I remember going up [00:23:00] on the roof of a friend's restaurant, you know, when it, there were all kinds of things that, that we did. Not all of them are great. I remember bouncing out of the back of a pickup truck and everybody just laughing, you know, it was a different time.

But, but still story is universal, you know? And how we interact with each other as human beings stays the same.

 

 

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Shannon Betts: So I have another question. This kind of goes a little bit different, but if you could sit in a classroom where one of your stories was being read aloud mm-hmm. Like which story would you pick and what moment would you want to like, listen in and like watch the reader read?

Kate DiCamillo: No one's ever asked me that question [00:25:00] before, so I get to be invisible as I'm sitting there.

Shannon Betts: Yeah, right. You get to pick the book and you pick the moment that you want to like the kids to hear for the first time.

Kate DiCamillo: I'm thinking.

Shannon Betts: Mm-hmm. We'll give you time to think.

Kate DiCamillo: And I'm thinking how excruciating it would be to, to hear it, because I always wanna change. You know? It's that thing that I always say to the kids, it's never perfect. And it's not gonna succeed as if it's perfect because we're imperfect. But still I'm always like, oh, I should have put this word there and that word there, I guess where I would like to be.

And there are a lot of, a lot of moments that's, it's such an interesting question. I guess it, it's when the grownup Abilene walks into the doll shop. I, I think that's where I'd wanna be. Yeah.

Shannon Betts: [00:26:00] Extraordinary journey of Edward Tulane.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Betts: Love that answer. Love that answer that. I just read that book actually for the first time with a student last year for tutoring.

Oh, it went well.

Kate DiCamillo: How did it go? Oh, wow. Loved

it, loved it. Oh, that's fantastic.

Shannon Betts: And he was a

reluctant reader. It was a male student. But it, it's featured in the bookworms reading curriculum. I don't know if you are familiar with that, but they chose that as one of their books that they suggested for vocabulary study and comprehension study vocabulary.

Exactly. It's, it was fantastic. Love the book. Mary, did you wanna ask something?

Mary Saghafi: So I guess I, I, I truly understand that each of these books and all of their characters kind of become like. Children to you that you're nurturing mm-hmm. For quite a while. And so choosing one would would be kind of difficult.

But is there a character that you would like to kind of continue or that you would like to kind of [00:27:00] see progress as they get older? Or is there, are there any of those characters? That, that's a

Shannon Betts: good question. 'cause there's not many sequels. There's just like the series of like Mercy Watson, but that's more like a.

Series, which by the way, love those books, but

Kate DiCamillo: those are so much fun to do because, you know, it's just put mercy in a situation and then get outta the way.

Shannon Betts: Toast is my favorite food. So when, when I saw the hot buttered toast at the end I was like, this is my character.

Kate DiCamillo: And it's also, it's it Toast always tastes so much better when somebody else makes it for you.

. It's just one of those things that was

Shannon Betts: It's my grandmother's too, the best.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah.

Mary Saghafi: Every time I see hot buttered toast, I'm like,

Kate DiCamillo: man, I know it.

Shannon Betts: I took us on a tangent. I'm sorry.

Kate DiCamillo: Sorry. Yeah, no, and it's a good way to ask it, Mary, because you're right. I can't, you know, I sidestep the favorite book question all the time.

I sidestep the favorite character question all the time too, because of that nervous kind [00:28:00] of like picking a favorite child kind of thing. But

I think about I think there was a kid that wrote me and said, tell me what kind of grownups, eY and Beverly and Louisiana became, and I loved that question and I was and when I wrote her back, I said, I'm able to answer without even thinking. I don't have to think about it. Beverly to Penske is an art professor Louisiana, A Lafonte is a social worker.

Okay. And Raymie is a writer. And, and I I thought, wouldn't it be fun to write the story of them as adults? But I won't do it. I know I won't, but it's, it, it's nice to think about it and I, I love. Those girls, I loved that time with them and learned so much from [00:29:00] being with them, which sounds really weird since I made them up, I guess.

But it was just, it was a real it was a wonderful experience.

Mary Saghafi: Yeah. That's another, it's just such a, a charming way to think about characters. 'cause there are characters I think, that stay with us in, in many books. And I can only as, as not a writer myself you know, characters stay with me as the reader, but I can only imagine as they stay with the author.

So thank you for your answer to that. 'cause I think that that's so fascinating.

Shannon Betts: Mary and I, most of our teaching experience has been working with struggling readers. And your books really are written for fluent readers, you know students who have transitioned into chapter books. Although I really do like the Mercy Watson books 'cause that's, that was like a series I could use to get my students into those longer stories.

But what if a student does struggle with reading, but they love stories, what encouragement would you share with them?

Kate DiCamillo: I would share with the [00:30:00] kid and with the adult in their life. Just first the overarching notion, and I think we lose sight of this so much because we get so worried about it, but what a huge gift and privilege and joy it is to have access to a book and that, that you're struggling now, but you'll find a book I can purity guarantee it, as I'm sure both of y'all can attest to this too. You'll find a book that is like a key going into a lock, and then you will feel it inside of you and then the, the door opens up and so it is just this thing of. Of staying with it until.

Until you find that book that unlocks it. And you know, I [00:31:00] was a kid who struggled to learn how to read and was desperate for story, desperate for it. And just, you know, one of those kids who went off, it was first grade when we were taught how to read, not kindergarten. And and I thought I was gonna learn on the first day, devastated that I didn't, didn't understand how it was being taught to me.

And so that's the other thing. That I would say to kids who are struggling is just like, it's kind of like writing in that everybody does it in a different way. And so there's, you know, if this way of you learning is not working for you, there's another way to talk about it. And another way to approach it.

You know, because my mom was the one that ultimately taught me how to read. Because I don't, with like flashcards and me memorizing, that's the way my brain works. She knew my brain well enough and that's how I learned to read. And I think about that all the time because, and y'all see this [00:32:00] too. I know, but it's just like every kid learns in a different way, you know?

And so it's just like, okay, this is not the way, maybe this is the way, is that too long an answer?

Mary Saghafi: No, absolutely not. And I think too I happen to love audio books tremendously because I think that it makes them accessible in a way. Where if you feel like you're strapped on time and you cannot just sit down and enjoy a book or if your patience is lacking in, in being able to sit for that long.

And I think that that is a commonality for children in this day and age where technology is moving so fast that the patience that's required to get through an entire story is not always there especially if you're struggling. So I think that that's, that's a. A piece that teachers are trying to adapt to and understand and, and inspire students to be able to do that.

And I think a bridge to that is audio books. Because the story is [00:33:00] so alive and listening to a narrator read it or listening to a teacher during a read aloud who can pause and reflect and share some of the insights that they are. Making the connections that they're making is just essential for developing good readers.

And reading is not just calling words on a page. It is making the connections come to life in a movie inside of your brain. And so, helping students to really understand that. I think, I think that's where the magic happens, and that's why read Alouds are such a fond memory for students as they look back on their, you know, careers, adults look back on their schooling.

And I'm sure that many people could tell you a few names of, of Absolutely allowed.

Kate DiCamillo: Absolutely. I mean, now you're onto my favorite topic, which is, you know, and is. Reading aloud and that we, you know, as it, we still don't fully understand the magic of what happens there, that kind of [00:34:00] subterranean connection that happens between the people in the room.

The teacher and, and the kids. It's just, they're, it's like, it's the, the closest I've got to the language for it is it like, it makes a third place a a, a safe place where everybody kind of puts down all of their stuff and you enter into this. Third place together. And it is a powerful, powerful thing.

And you're right, you can, you know, you can go into any room of adults at a cocktail party and say, do you remember a teacher reading a book out loud to you? And you can watch. The adults face change. It is a life changing kind of thing. And when I do public events, I ask how many teachers are in the room, and then I ask them how many of them read out loud to their class, and then I make everybody in there [00:35:00] applaud those teachers because no one thinks.

I didn't think to thank Mrs. Boyette. And, and you know, it's just like, it, it is a huge gift and I always think about, you know, I grew up in a house filled with books and a mother who read to me and took me to the library and bought me books and still. What mattered to me getting read to every day after launch by Mrs.

Boyette. I couldn't wait for it. So what about the kid who's not getting it any place else? Okay. Down off the soap box now.

Shannon Betts: Oh, it's one of our favorite soap boxes too. My kindergarten teacher called it the magic carpet. Yep. And we would go on a magic carpet. Right. I think that was that magical third place you were talking about.

Yep. Yep. I'm curious what grade level Mrs. Boyette was your teacher, Ms. Okay, great. Yep. Ms. Harvey read us Island of the Blue Dolphins after, at the end of lunch for fourth grade. That one? Yeah.

Kate DiCamillo: And that was one that, that Mrs. Boyette read to us. And she, it was always, she, she made her way through. [00:36:00] Novels and it was just like it was this really, truly sacred time for everybody.

Shannon Betts: Yeah. Yeah. It was always my favorite time as a teacher as well. Whenever I could read a lot with my students, I don't really have that now that I'm a reading tutor, I can't quite do it as much. It's the more shared reading. But that was always my favorite time when I was a homeroom teacher. It was just like, okay, we can all just sit on the carpet.

We can relax and we can just like. Just, just all drift into this story together. And you're right, it's like some sort of magic happens with this like collective. Yeah. Story that's being visualized by everyone at the same time or something.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah. It, you know, it, you know, how they've discovered now or maybe they've known for a while and we just, the general population know that like with trees that the all the roots are communicating like yeah.

Pecan trees do that, I heard. Yeah. And, and so it's just like, it's, it's. That with consciousness, it seems like it's not always [00:37:00] articulated. It, but it's felt, you know, collectively, so.

Shannon Betts: Yep. I wanna circle back to something you mentioned earlier. You mentioned that quote from Katherine Patterson, and we'll find the actual quote and put it in.

I showed notes Good, because I'm

Kate DiCamillo: sure I've, I've messed it up. No,

Shannon Betts: but it says that what you were, what I got from what you were saying was that you intentionally. Want to end on hope to make sure I, and so how do you balance that? Because there is sort of a dark time and then light, you know, at the end of your story.

So is there a point in you, in the writing process where you're like, okay, I gotta bring it back up, or the story helps write itself?

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah. This is one of those things where it would be good if everybody had the, the video of me shaking my head. So, yeah, no, it is not intentional. And you know, when I started writing, I started off by writing short stories for adults, you know, sending them to literary magazines.

And then I, I kind of found my way through a happy set of circumstances [00:38:00] into writing for kids. And I was aware of how it changed me. As a writer, and I wouldn't, again, I wouldn't have known in the moment that, that that duty bound to end with hope, but I felt it and I didn't. It it's like that, it was a moral thing there because.

I think maybe I was dialoguing with my 8-year-old self, and I knew I had to take care of that child. And so I knew it was there. I, I read it with, you know explicitly with Katherine Patterson's quote, but I felt it anyway. And and I, and I, so I feel it the whole time. And it, like I said, it's a different.

Me who writes the stories for kids a better me because of that, that hope. You know,

Mary Saghafi: I would love to just kind of add onto that because SEL you know, [00:39:00] social emotional learning is such an a powerful piece that's, that's more actively being implemented in classrooms right now. And I think that the stories.

Have an ending and the ending may not be tied up perfectly, but with a bow. And it doesn't have to necessarily be just a happy ending, but I think that key word is hope. And so understanding the difference between a happy ending that would. Only be possible for a very few, or the opportunity to find hope in a situation that's been experienced.

And I think being able to utilize books in that way to really dive deep into characters and really dive deep into circumstances that are often beyond the characters' control, just as they would be in a child's life. So I think that, you know, we, we often say that reading is just this gateway to so many topics, but I think that teachers are really utilizing books in, in a way to springboard off of [00:40:00] how can, how can we help individuals kind of process these big feelings that are kind of universal feelings.

And I really appreciate the term ending on a, a, a piece of hope rather than just. Tying it up in a beautiful bow.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah. And, you know, tying it up in a beautiful bow. Well, we all want that, but we also know that that's, like you said, that's not the way it goes for most people. And and it makes you feel lonely when something hap you know, it's, I just think about how.

It, I wouldn't say that I, the, the example I always use is Charlotte's Web because that's rough at the end. And, and yet you can bear it. And, and it, that is, you know, I, I had done a. Commencement address for a [00:41:00] writing program here in the Twin Cities and I, I did it like 16 years ago and my best friend.

When I was growing up reread Charlotte's Web all the time and like would finish it and turn it over and start again. And I'm like, what were you after there? And, and I, did you think it was gonna turn out differently? And she's like, no. I knew it wasn't gonna turn out differently, but, and it was all so beautiful and I thought I couldn't bear it.

And then I would read it again. And I found that I could. And to me that was one of the most beautiful summations of what? A piece of literature that tells the truth. And offers hope can do. You know, it's just like I didn't think I could bear it and then I read it again and I found that I could, you know, and I love that.

Yeah. Well,

Shannon Betts: you mentioned earlier you said that you kind of like delve into the fairytale world a little bit, but like I think that this is the difference of your stories is that they're grounded in the reality of the human experience and these emotions. [00:42:00] Yeah. And it's not just this happily ever after.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah. No. And I was thinking about fairytales when I was, when we were talking about Happily ever after, and you know, I love fairytales but I never believed in things being tied up neatly. You know, 'cause I was living my own messy childhood life, you know, with parents that left and things that got talked about and things that did not get talked about.

And yeah, so it's, it's it, I think it's wonderful that stories can make us feel less alone by showing the imperfect, beautiful world and that we can find happiness.

Shannon Betts: Just so many characters that allow students to see themselves in them and in the experience. And then, like we've mentioned so many times, open up the dialogue to be able to have the words we can talk to talk about.

Yeah, you can.

Kate DiCamillo: Yep. Yep.

Shannon Betts: So this is we won't ask you your favorite character or [00:43:00] anything like that, but if you're, if some of your characters could be friends, who do you think would be friends?

Kate DiCamillo: I think it would be nice if Rob Horton from the Tiger Rising could meet up with, well, and let's take sine along too with Beverly and EY and Louisiana.

I think that would be comforting for all of them. I'm thinking. You know, it's funny because a lot of times when I get introduced now in a podcast or an interview, it's just like the prolific writer. And I always am like, I'm not prolific because I move so slowly. But I have a lot of books now. And so when I'm thinking back on all of the characters, just like that's, that's a lot of characters to interact.

Yeah. And Opal, let's let Opal hang out with them too. Yeah.

Shannon Betts: I think Opal and Ferris would be friends.

Kate DiCamillo: Oh yeah. Ferris and Billy Jackson. Billy Jackson would be really good for [00:44:00] Rob Horton to meet, you know? Yeah. That's, that's a wonderful game to

Mary Saghafi: play. Yeah. It's so fun to, to put these characters together.

And I do love Billy Jackson and Rob because I think that, y there are some really amazing standout female characters in your books, but I think that in, in line with that, there are also some quiet sensitive male characters that play such a, an amazing role and allow some of our, our. You know, male students to also understand that, you know, it doesn't have to be a one-sided boy girl.

There's, there's lots of dimensions within our classroom and, and feelings that are allowed to be felt throughout the book. So I love this game. We could play this. I actually, yeah, no,

Kate DiCamillo: and I'm just thinking about that with Billy Jackson and, and his dad, big Billy, you know, and how. He just is thrilled that, that, I mean, Billy Jackson is, [00:45:00] is an artist.

He's gonna be a, he is gonna be a pianist. That's all there is to it. And his father was a famous football player. I loved

Shannon Betts: that. He appreciated his son for who he was and didn't try to make him a macho football player.

Kate DiCamillo: He's so proud of him. And you know, and Rob's dad is shut down. So Billy Jackson as an artist.

Could take Rob, who I think would be another artist, and, and tell him it's gonna be okay. You know? I

Mary Saghafi: love that. And yeah, I think that that the whole scene where, billy Jackson's father, just like really champions how, how he is and who he could be would just really enlighten Rob so much because I think of Rob's father and the tiger rising and you know, he's like, well throw some ointment on your, on the rash you have.

Well, we're staying in this hotel room. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah. He's just, he's

Kate DiCamillo: so closed off. Yeah. And, and doesn't. [00:46:00] Doesn't fully see Rob. I mean, he is tender with him at the end, but, but he doesn't fully see him. And Billy Jackson could, could take Rob home to his, to Big Billy, you know, Billy,

Mary Saghafi: and it would just be, oh, yes, Beau.

I just love these characters

Shannon Betts: as a Teacher. I really, I'm sure a lot of people's favorite scene is the candlelight dinner in, in Ferris. But my favorite one was just the tiny moment when Ms. Milk goes to the restaurant and eats, the first time, and I guess it was right after her husband died and Big Billy didn't know that, but he recognized her as the teacher that had helped his son learn big, great words.

Mm. And so he sent that free dessert to her apple pile EOD and said, thank you for teaching. My son and his best friend Ferris, these big words. And she teared up. And like I, I, that's how you feel as a teacher when you get. Thank yous from the, you know, the heartfelt thank yous from the parents and the students.

And so that [00:47:00] was my favorite moment of the book.

Kate DiCamillo: And let's go back to that thing of how it doesn't always happen in a timely fashion. You know, I've got a, a class picture from second grade with Mrs. Boyette there and and it's sometimes use it in a PowerPoint and I go, there's Mrs. Boyette. And I thought, oh, she was probably like 95 or something.

And I look at her and, you know, she, I'm older than Mrs. Boyette now, and, and you know, it is just like, I didn't think, you know, by the time I was aware of the gift that, that Mrs. Boyette had given to me and could properly articulate it, I did not. You know, I, it, it was too late to thank her. So that's, you know, I, I'm sorry for all the times I didn't thank y'all.

You saved my life. You and librarians. Yeah. So

Shannon Betts: always that why I did like the librarian scene with Pinky as well. Did you include that [00:48:00] one on purpose?

Kate DiCamillo: The, well, I, well, you know, I just love how like Pinky gets annoyed with a little match girl. Who does that? That was amazing. I mean, she's like annoyed with, she shoulda have helped herself.

She shoulda have helped herself.

Mary Saghafi: I'm telling you the way that the characters are just like. They just kind of pop in, in the moments in Ferris that are just hilarious. And Pinky being a young child who has already taught herself to read, who is just this Spitfire. She just is such a lovely character.

And the funny part is I also feel like Terrace is, is actually the, like the overarching big presence, but like, it's all these little supporting characters that just make it's so hilarious and, and. Cherise in her, in her own right is, is hilarious in herself. But this book, Farris is, I just highly [00:49:00] recommend it and I'm eager to kind of get started and it is such a joy to be able to like, kind of just bounce some of these favorite pieces with you so that when I am speaking to my students about it, I can, you know, find.

Humor and, and, and share with them you know, these moments and say no. I really had the opportunity to listen to the author, kind of describe where they come from. It's, this is such a gift.

Kate DiCamillo: Oh, it's so much fun for me to tell. I'm still stuck back there with Billy Jackson ushering Robin to being an artist in the world and like telling them it's okay.

Yeah. This, this is just. An amazing conversation, y'all. You

Shannon Betts: could just write a scene. Even if you don't write a sequel, you could write a little scene. You know how people do

Kate DiCamillo: fanfic these days? Yeah. Right, right. I could put them all up on the roof together. Yeah.

Shannon Betts: Just what would they talk about? That would be so neat.

Well, what would you wanna say to teachers who use your books in the [00:50:00] classroom?

Kate DiCamillo: Thank you. Just, and that thing of it is such a huge gift to have teachers read my books allowed, but any book allowed. But it's also that wonderful thing of, and this is really hard to, can't back it up, but I feel it.

I'm there too. And so it's just like this thing of I get to be in the classroom even though I'm, I'm not there. I can, I still feel that connection and every time a teacher reads out loud, I get to be a part of it too. And that is bomb for my heart. So.

Shannon Betts: We just, we appreciate what you do. Like thank you for sharing your craft with the world and continuing to write. I don't know when you approach retirement, but hopefully it's not anytime soon. 'cause we know more your stories. No, I'm not gonna, how could

Kate DiCamillo: I, how could I live without stories? [00:51:00] And yeah. And I appreciate so much what y'all do.

So.

Shannon Betts: Is there anything else you wanna share with our audience? We, we have pre-service teachers listening. We have parents listening, we have reading teachers and literacy coaches listening.

Kate DiCamillo: You know, that gratitude, that thing of all of us together, you know, I'll say to the kids sometimes, it's not a book until you read it.

So it is, we are a community. I can't. It. I might write it, it might be published, it might be in book form. It still doesn't exist until somebody enters into it with their heart. It doesn't, you know? So you complete me. That's right. So the

Shannon Betts: interaction needs to be there, the book. Yeah. And the reader need to be, yeah.

To make the full. Okay. I like that.

Mary Saghafi: Yeah.

Shannon Betts: Thank you so much for sharing your time.

Mary Saghafi: I was just [00:52:00] gonna share that in our show notes. Anybody that wants to link to any of these stories that we're talking about and, and perhaps we'll put some connections to your, your webpage or your Facebook page where people can also message you if they have any.

Shannon Betts: Yeah, I wanted to ask that if there was a preferable way, 'cause you said that readers do reach out to you, like, especially like some of the student leaders. Yeah.

Kate DiCamillo: You can write to me in care of. Candlewick, it's the address is right there in the front of the book and candlewick forwards the mail every week to me.

So

Shannon Betts: I love that. We'll make sure and put that address in there.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah. And I had something else to say when you were doing the, the wrap up. This is what happens when you get old. You forget what you were gonna say next in the conversation. But. Yeah, it is, it is. I guess I wanna come back to that notion of us as a community.

So I'm proud to be a part of this reading and writing circle with y'all.

Mary Saghafi: Thank you so much for your time today. This [00:53:00] was just such a treat and I'm excited to continue to share stories with my students. Thank you.

Kate DiCamillo: Yeah, thank you. Oh wait, I remembered. Can I say yes? It's, wherever we went in the conversation, you guys know every book that I've written.

So when I would think, bring up a character and think, oh, well, you know, technically I don't know if they've read it or not. Like, you know, Rob and I mean all of that. So it was, thank you for that.

Shannon Betts: You're speaking to super fans here. Yeah.

Mary Saghafi: Yeah. I mean because, I started my teaching in 2006. Many students were familiar with your works and we were sharing it.

And so I feel like I've been along this journey. And as soon as a new book comes out you know, many times it's a recommendation. So, oh, you really enjoyed you know, the miraculous journey of Edward Tula. Why don't you try Tiger Rising and, Ooh, it's a little bit shorter. Maybe you'll enjoy this book.

And so, you know, I think that it's, [00:54:00] it's easy to, to make recommendations that way. And so of course you're very welcome for reading all of your books. It's just, it's, thank you for all of it. Yeah

Kate DiCamillo: . So thank you.

 
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S8 E 1 New Season, New Stories