S8 E10 Beyond Decoding
In this Season 8 finale, Shannon and Mary reflect on the school year and share updates from their work as reading tutors, literacy advocates, and parents. As many of their students move beyond foundational decoding skills, both educators discuss how they've incorporated sentence-composing into their structured literacy instruction after being inspired by Season 8 guest Sara Lee.
They explain how literature-based model sentences, scaffolded sentence imitation, and explicit language instruction help students strengthen syntax, comprehension, vocabulary, and writing skills. Shannon also shares how she uses English Linking Blocks and targeted word lists to provide multisensory language support during sentence work.
The conversation explores the growing role of morphology instruction in literacy intervention, including excitement about UFLI's upcoming structured morphology curriculum, Word Origins. Shannon and Mary also discuss Georgia's dyslexia screeners, Mary's recent professional learning in Structured Word Inquiry (SWI) through Word Torque, and the importance of supporting math development through number sense, fact fluency, subitizing, and conceptual understanding.
Join these reading teachers for a wide-ranging discussion on how their Science of Reading aligned practices continue to evolve to meet the needs of students.
Episode 8.10 Beyond Decoding
00:38 Life as Busy Parents
02:30 Tutoring and Advocacy Load
04:29 Discovering Sentence Composing
07:37 Harry Potter Hook
09:17 Linking Blocks Breakthrough
13:18 From Sentences to Writing
19:43 Structured Morphology Word Origins
22:58 Structured Morphology Wins
23:48 Curriculum Fidelity First
27:06 Word Origins Details
28:41 Australia Connections
31:17 Getting It Into Schools
32:15 Georgia Reading Screening
37:59 Math Fluency Intervention
40:22 Subitizing And Word Problems
47:12 Wrap Up Season Notes
Transcript:
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8.10 RTL Season 8 Finale -
Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Hey, Mary, another episode of the Reading Teacher's Lounge is here.
Mary Saghafi: This season, Shannon and I are diving into new topics and insights about best practices, sharing more teacher-tested strategies, and bringing you engaging conversations with fresh and possibly returning guests.
Shannon Betts: Whether you're a teacher, tutor, or parent, you'll find practical ideas and real talk to support the readers in your life.
Mary Saghafi: 'Cause teaching reading is tough, but you don't have to figure it out alone.
Shannon Betts: Join the conversation and level up your teaching with us every episode in
the Reading Teacher's Lounge.
Mary, I'm so glad we're finally catching up. , I feel I haven't seen you all year, except on, during our recordings.
Mary Saghafi: I know, which is on Zoom, which is hilarious because we're so close in proximity to each other, but-
Shannon Betts: Did you see me waving, , as I crossed the corner, , two days ago, , driving by your house?
I did, actually. Okay, you did.
Mary Saghafi: And then I saw you the other day, , with the dog, and I was , [00:01:00] "Hi," but I was, , on a busier street, so I couldn't.
Shannon Betts: We're just, , passing each other, yes.
Mary Saghafi: Ships passing in the night.
Shannon Betts: That's what my husband and I are doing too. We're so busy with the kids these days.
Mary Saghafi: You know what?
Me too, and I was just chatting with another neighbor across the street, and they happen to have, , smaller kids. And I said I wasn't prepared for how my life would really evolve around, , taking my kids places.
Shannon Betts: Oh, my friend, you know I've been saying for a while that- ... , i'm just an unpaid Uber driver with bad reviews.
I- That's my afternoon, evening job.
Mary Saghafi: I wish that, ... I think in the back of my mind, as most parents do, that it's not gonna be me.
Mary Saghfi: Yeah. Oh, it
Mary Saghafi: is. Whatever. I can fully admit to that. That was just living in this, , idea of bliss. Good job.
Shannon Betts: And both of my kids are teenagers now, and- ... , this is a hard age.
- Yeah ... I find myself longing for, , when they were four and eight, and it was just nice and, , [00:02:00] innocent in my house. It's a lot, and, , there's just fewer manuals, I think, for parenting at this age, so I'm constantly- I agree ... asking friends that have kids, in the older ages, , "Help me with this, help me with this," 'cause it's a lot.
Mary Saghafi: How do you navigate these kind of conversations- Exactly ... with, conflicts that are... We're trying so hard not to have conflict.
Shannon Betts: Yeah, and I'm raising boys, and I want them to, , not participate in the- cycle of misogyny and stuff, it's hard. Of course.
So- Yeah, definitely ... and then I'm, I've been really busy too, , which is why we've only seen each other in passing, , and I was reflecting in my journal. I was , "Why do I feel so much busier than I did last year at this time?" Which I remember f- last year this time I was still on sabbatical. And I only had, , three to four hours of tutoring a week, and now I'm doing 11 to 12 hours of tutoring a week. And I'm , "Oh, that's why."
Mary Saghafi: - That is why ...
Shannon Betts: that is a huge- Yeah ... increase in one year. And it just gradually, , happened, , we're at add a [00:03:00] client, and then a couple weeks later I'd add another one, and a couple weeks later...
And, but then all of a sudden you're , "Oh my goodness," , I've d- I've tutored four straight hours today,
Mary Saghafi: I 100% feel that. , The other piece of my business, is advocacy. Yeah. And so this also happens to be a really busy advocacy time, and I literally was just going through my calendar, and already this morning I've had two advocacy meetings.
I had two yesterday, and those are not... Those are more, , parent support meetings, a pre-meeting before going into an IEP meeting. But this last month I've had four IEP meetings that I've attended, and each of them is actually going to have a continuation. Wow. And so that piece, requires its own kind of, , brain set for planning and getting- ready. And I know you know how difficult and also rewarding it is to plan for kids for tutoring, because it's such a different way of teaching kids. You can teach [00:04:00] them, , based on what their needs are, and you're not trying to, plow through the, , standards necessarily. You're- you're really just meeting what their needs are. And so that comes with its own blessings and curses too, because- Yeah.
Shannon Betts: I feel a huge accountability piece on my end for it. For sure. , A huge responsibility, that I don't wanna waste any minutes of the appointment, and I want all the activities I choose to, , give the most, , impact, learning impact that they can, the most, , enriching activities. And speaking of, I really wanted to mention to you, , since we've recorded with Sara Lee on our grammar episode-
...
Shannon Betts: That was probably the episode, , this season that, , prompted me to change some things in my teaching the most. So I've always wanted to do more grammar, and im- especially embedded with writing.
Yeah. But I wasn't really sure how to do it accurately. And, - she mentioned, , a method called sentence composing- Yes ... during that conversation, and when I looked into it, I was really intrigued, [00:05:00] so I ended up getting three books about it. -
Mary Saghafi: Oh my gosh, Shannon, we have not talked about this- We should
but I did the exact same thing.
Shannon Betts: Okay, so I got the yellow elementary one, and then the- Same ... green middle school one, and then I got the blue one that's just , all about it.
Mary Saghafi: I got the blue one, and guess what else I got. What? Harry Potter.
Shannon Betts: Oh, you know what? I saw that one, and I thought that...
Mary Saghafi: Okay.
, I-
Shannon Betts: You could practice that with your daughters, I bet.
Mary Saghafi: Yes, my daughters are very interested, but I also have a tutoring student who is very much a Potterhead as well- ... and, , also very, , intimidated by grammar and sentences- ... , when she has to go back and edit. And so sentence composing is not editing, which is great, but it definitely models amazing sentences from literature, and then has students
Shannon Betts: imitate and-
I love how the step-by-step.
, It's definitely a structured approach of, - Yeah ... le- , more scaffolding to less scaffolding- Yes ... in terms of having the students, , create their own complex sentences. Yeah. So- and a lot of the work is done for you. You just have to [00:06:00] lead the students through it, and actually, it is a lot of still...
You have to provide a lot of support in the moment- Yeah ... as you're leading the students through the activities. And I've found, too, , I've had to, , create, , my own little flip charts with, , list of prepositions, list of adjectives, list of adverbs. , Vivid verbs. , I've forbidden my students to use IS or WAS in any of their sentence composing sentences.
Oh. , I- and it's been, it's just been fascinating. , I'm doing it with, , five of my students, I think. - Great ... and they're all need different levels of support- ... with it. -
Mary Saghafi: I have two students working on it right now, two. Meh, maybe three, but mostly two, and it's a very different lesson for both of the students.
And even though they're similar grade levels- ... similar, quote, unquote, diagnoses, it's just different needs. It's... I'm, I am actually really appreciating this approach, too, because one, I've never taught it this before- ... really breaking down a sentence level. But I think that you can't really [00:07:00] underestimate how important it is to use the literature sentences with...
and I this- this program because what they do is they use really common, , and familiar and high quality texts that stu-
Shannon Betts: The Giver is in there a lot. Sounder, Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry comes up a lot. Jurassic Park. , No, there's all the-
Mary Saghafi: Lord of the Rings
Shannon Betts: comes up a lot ...
Mary Saghafi: The BFG.
Yeah Lots of Roald Dahl books. , and so those sentences can trigger something that may be familiar to students. , Oh, I've heard of this book before. I've heard of this character, or, oh, I have read this book. , And the Harry Potter ones I have a little mixed review.
One, it's not the same kind of high quality sentences as some of the ones in the yellow Elementary book- Okay ... that I've been using. However, it's more engaging and it's getting that connection that the student really needed.
Shannon Betts: Okay, so it could be a gateway to the other ones.
Mary Saghafi: Okay. I would definitely agree.
If you [00:08:00] happen to have a student who is, , a big Harry Potter nerd, and both... And I think you all know this too, that, , we listen to Harry Potter all the time and we are still going through. We are right now on book... Oh my God.
Shannon Betts: When she says this, she means as a family. They have d- They've dressed up as Harry Potter r- for Halloween.
Mary Saghafi: We went to Universal.
Shannon Betts: Y'all still under your porch have the, the candle things hanging- ... from the ceiling.
Mary Saghafi: , That hangs year round.
Shannon Betts: Yes.
Mary Saghafi: , , No, it's so true. So we're definitely in it. We're on round 11 of reading the books. Aw. And we're on book six.
Shannon Betts: Oh, wow. I know. So are we gonna make it to round 12?
Who knows.
Mary Saghafi: I would not doubt it because my younger daughter, it... She just, , feels so comforted in lots of repetitive stories. , She always wants to read the same story again. She... But she finds, , comfort in it. It- And so this is her, , way to, , calm down- That's- ... and be zen ...
Shannon Betts: that's sweet. Did y'all go see the show when it was at the Fox?
Mary Saghafi: Did. Okay.
Shannon Betts: One of my tutoring students did too.
Mary Saghafi: Did he see the Cur- The Cursed Child?
Shannon Betts: Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: And it was [00:09:00] really fun because I had not actually read that play. It's a play. And, , so I went in, , with fresh eyes, and I inspired my older daughter to do that too. But then, of course, while we were there she had to buy the book and- Aw, of course
, Promptly re-devoured the whole thing.
Shannon Betts: Aw. It's so cute. Okay. I want to go back to Sentence Composing because I want to tell you one other thing. - Yeah ... so Sara Lee, , loaned me a kit, and it's called Hands On English Li- Linking Blocks.
Mary Saghafi: Yes. I know this. Okay. When I was teaching fourth grade, one of the general ed teachers showed me this.
I actually haven't really taught with it though. Okay. So it's kind of-
Shannon Betts: So I'm doing it with that one middle schooler that you had seen-
Mary Saghafi: I am well aware because his mom just told me yesterday.
Shannon Betts: Okay. And so what I'm doing is I'd started... Th- This kit actually has some lessons in it, and I did start with those lessons, but honestly they were just out of context.
And so it just... I wasn't seeing the transfer of learning as much, okay? Makes sense. And so then I decided, , since we are doing the sentence [00:10:00] composing and the student is really responding to sentence composing. Now this student, has a lot of learning needs, and , sometimes honestly it will take us 45 minutes to do two sentences for sentence composing.
, It's... We're going pretty slow. But, , every time it's over, the appointment's over, he's , "It's been an hour? I... We've been... We were so in the zone," - i know.
Mary Saghafi: Isn't that incredible though? Yeah.
Shannon Betts: Because we're doing... these sentences have, , four or five phrases in them, and, , what you have to do is for each of those phrases you have to figure out is it an adjective or adverb phrase, and what is, where is that phrase modifying? And when Sara was talking about that in the episode, I really didn't understand what she was saying very much, but now I get it, now that I'm practicing it with the students.
, You really are. And then for, to make the students imitate the sentences themselves, you're , "Oh, this is a detail telling a phrase detail telling when the verb happened that, , direct practice with you, because that's what so many of our students need, is that, , really explicit [00:11:00] instruction and getting into the nitty-gritty details,
Mary Saghafi: but holding students accountable for those details, because that's when they take the ownership of their learning, right?
So this is the best part of these things, is you can actually- The manipulatives? You can actually, , you... So each of the parts of speech has a color, okay? Okay. Of these blocks. And we will take...
Shannon Betts: I've made my own little cards based on the sentences from sentence composing, and we will do parts of speech from that sentence composing.
,
Shannon Betts: I'll give him all the cards- ... and he just starts picking up the blocks and putting that sentence in order, okay? That's great. But then we can use these long, , foam strips, and we identify where the phrase starts and ends, and then we label that phrase as an adjective or an adverb phrase. So we can link with this foam thing all of the blocks together in that phrase so that [00:12:00] we can move it as a chunk Yes
and that has really helped. So now what we do is we'll do that for the model sentence, and it has made it so much easier for that student to then imitate the sentence. Oh. And we've really made it... Because we've made it what? We've made it multi-sensory, haven't we? I think that's what I was just about to say.
We've made it tactile, and, , it just makes... It just brings it alive. It makes it come alive.
Mary Saghafi: Oh, I'm so glad.
Shannon Betts: And what the student told me too, he is really good about sharing his ahas,
Mary Saghafi: yes.
Shannon Betts: And he was... When we were doing all these sentences, especially when he was struggling to imitate them, he was , "Oh, now I get it.
It's it's one moment in time, and we're naming all the things happening in that moment in time." And we're mostly doing sports sentences, okay? What's happening on the
Mary Saghafi: field. I wish you could see that my mouth is - ... my jaw is, , on the ground. For him to make that connection is huge.
Shannon Betts: And I've been repeating that to all my other students now. I'm , "This is one moment in time." , We are pausing it. We are saying, what are they thinking and feeling as they're knocking on the [00:13:00] door, as they're holding the ball about to pitch it or whatever. This is not a whole story in one sentence.
It's a small moment expanded, really, just at the sentence level. Oh, awesome. And the sentences have transformed, , since he had that realization too. So I am such a fan of sentence composing. I have not quite seen the writing improve yet. Yeah. But I... Th- that's just got to happen at some point because they're getting all this practice.
'Cause I tell them, , right now, most of the time, speech, oral language is very straightforward and it's, , almost always chronological. , In order. We do something and then we do something- That is so true ... and we do something. But then when they start to see and analyze these sentences and sentence composing, they see that written language is different.
I'm , "That author decided to put something from the back of the sentence in the front of the sentence for a reason, to make it creative, to make it stand out, and so it's not always [00:14:00] chronological, and we've got to understand how that sentence is structured to make... to understand the whole point of that sentence, and so I have not seen their writing transform yet in that way. It's still that chronological oral language talking way. But I'm hoping that... And I'm only in the first... sentence composing starts with that, , an overview. Yeah. It's the first nine pages. That overview took, , couple months with some of my students.
And then it breaks... And that's where the overview, all the different methods- And then it goes-
Mary Saghafi: I call it a toolbox- ... of different types of sentences that authors... That's what I really talked with my students about. , An author is an adult who's been studying to or is ready to write, but an author has a lot of tools and tricks.
And so we're going to illuminate those tools and tricks so that when you are writing, you also can imitate and model these sentences to really make your words stand out on the page, just the same way when you're reading a sentence that illuminates what's [00:15:00] happening. Your you might punch your fist in the air and be , "Yeah, that's what happened when Neville's head, or when he chopped off the head of the snake."
,
Shannon Betts: and the toolbox might be, , opening with an adjective phrase, or opening- Yes ... with an adverb phrase, or closing with an adverb phrase, or closing with an adjective phrase, or whatever. And so it's that overview part, and then the individual techniques- Yep ... , in each chapter. And I'm only in, , the in- I've just started the individual techniques with my students.
So I feel as we build those techniques and get deeper with them, that's when I'm hoping I'll see the transformation in their writing as well. I think so. But there there is so much learning that happens, 'cause I feel we're working on comprehension, we're working on vocabulary, we are working on structured written inquiry because we constantly have to analyze the s- the suffixings, - Yep
the suffixes to see, , how it changed the part of speech and things that, and, , the tense of the verb, and we're working on a lot of stuff at one time when we do sentence composing.
Mary Saghafi: I think that's the part that I appreciate so [00:16:00] much, and w- what I was intimidated before I found this- was how do I plug in all of these skills?
Shannon Betts: Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: And what is a good quality sentence to do that? Or am I just reinventing a sentence out of nowhere? And I feel uncomfortable doing that. But I think that the really great challenge, and the part that is time-consuming with this program, is that then when students are requested to imitate those sentences- that's when you really work through those nitty-gritty pieces with them, and it's time-consuming. So you can't just imagine that you're gonna get through that lesson maybe, in a quick 20-minute time period, because it depends on really the student's skill level. So I do love using this as a resource for intervention.
Because it's-
Shannon Betts: 'Cause they really do have to imitate the structure. , I have... I find a lot of my students, , they struggle with, , especially imitating when there's a direct object or an indirect object, 'cause they just [00:17:00] wanna, , say the subject and the verb and then, , a prepositional phrase.
And sometimes that, the sentence is structured that way, but other times I'm , "No, you can't use on or of or from r- here. You've got to actually put another noun here."
Mary Saghafi: I that too because I think that the- If they are trying to imitate and they don't get it right, that's such a good learning opportunity to be , "Okay but what is the subject that you're talking about?"
Or, "What are you re- e- what is it that you are modifying in this sentence?" And holding them to account, then they can go, "Oh. Oh." But the key that, , is so different it's an analogy that's if you can spell the word, you can read the word. But if you can, , really analyze and understand the sentence, if you are writing it and imitating it, then you're really understanding the comprehension of what's happening.
That, I feel that's a really good analogy, , especially when you are working in this, , kind of [00:18:00] intentional space of helping students make those connections. Intervention space,
Shannon Betts: i'm hoping too that, , our students are gearing up to take the state test, you know- soon, and, , I'm really hoping that working on this sentence level comprehension, , is really gonna show in their comprehension scores,
Mary Saghafi: I really hope so too. Oh, I'm so excited. Yes, I've been, -
Shannon Betts: Look at that. We were both working on it, , and we didn't even know it. I know. That makes me so happy. That's really cool.
I've thought about inviting them, , I might reach out to them over the summer and see if they wanna come on the podcast next season, the Killgallons. That sounds great. 'Cause they... I really wanna know, , how they came up with this and, they do say some of it in the forward, -
Mary Saghafi: it's been around for, , 20 years.
I know,
Shannon Betts: , Why does nobody know about it? Yeah. It's so cool.
Mary Saghafi: I think because you're right about how nitty-gritty it is- ... and how time-consuming it is. I think that in a classroom space I think it's better to work not on necessarily-
Shannon Betts: But you could do one a day. Just we use daily oral language and stuff [00:19:00] that for morning work, we could, you could do that.
Mary Saghafi: It, the... It's really good. I-
Shannon Betts: That's how I would do it if I was doing it in a whole room.
Mary Saghafi: And I think it's so easily adaptable, right? Yeah. , Creating visuals along with it or- ... if it's even a movie and you watch a little movie clip to get kids hooked into who are these characters that they're talking about in this one sentence.
Worth it, right? Yeah. Worth it so that they can vis- visualize it.
Shannon Betts: , I've s- I've taken some pictures as the student, , that I've been talking about works with the blocks and everything, and , I'll share some of those to go along with this episode so that people can kinda-
... See what we're talking about.
Mary Saghafi: I might be really interested in using those blocks because that seems -
Shannon Betts: I know. I'm not ready to give them back 'cause I feel - no. I stole- ... I've gotta order my own kit, but they're expensive, but we'll link to that in the show notes too. Oh. Okay, I wanna talk about structured word inquiry too.
So- Great. I have more to share.
I, because I've been doing sentence composing, I've been doing less Of the, , , spending less time doing the structured inquiry during my tutoring lessons right now. But I'm also pausing it [00:20:00] because UFLI... So a number of my students have gone through UFLI or were about to be finished with UFLI.
And so then, , I was moving on to structured inquiry with them after that. Or if a- And you gave them
Mary Saghfi: morphology ...
Shannon Betts: student knew, already knew how to, decode, then I was doing structured inquiry with my third, fourth, and fifth graders and so on. But, , UFLI and Holly Lane, , from University of Florida did a, they were , "Everybody come to this webinar.
We have some big news to share." So they have found a structured morphology program out of Australia called Word Origins. Okay. That is basically, it's , UFLI is set up where it's day one, lesson one, and it's , "Do these words, practice these words. Here are some sentences. Here's some dictation da.
Here's a story, a decodable with it embedded." This is a str- explicit structured [00:21:00] morphology program that is UFLI. Cool. And they are right now, , all year they have been translating it from Australian English to American English. And, , soon it is gonna be available for pre-order. Ooh. , There's a Google Form that you can sign up to get the f- release date to order it.
So I, I just signed up for the Google Form. And then also, , on the UFLI website there's a kinda info page about Word Origins. , But it looks fantastic. And some of my students that as I was phasing them out of UFLI, I was kinda , "Okay, we might be done. I can let these students go."
But some of the parents are , "No, we wanna keep you." And so now I'm , "All right. As soon as Word Origins comes, we will start with Word Origins lesson one." So it seems to be, they modeled a couple of activities, , and kinda showed us what it looked in practice- Okay ... in some of these schools in Australia.
And it looks they might take a word EXPORT, okay? So export actually has a prefix and a good base on it, 'cause [00:22:00] it's got ex and P-O-R-T, port. And so that might be the word of the day, and you analyze it. And then you can study a lot of words with ex, so prefix. Ooh. Or you can study a lot of words with the base port.
And I think it, each day there's specific word analysis that then you pull in other words from the word bank in there. And I think they also , you might do import a couple weeks later, so then you can revisit the port base. But then do-
Mary Saghafi: Does that make sense?
Yeah. So then you can use e- you can use both of them, but you can also have that, , general inquiry, , into words that might be, , naturally coming up within the week of- Yeah.
So it seems
Shannon Betts: There's, , that hook word. , Export- Cool ... is the hook word. Yeah. And we're gonna, , hook that prefix and that base on that word so that we can explicitly study it, but then also see other related words that have, , that affix or that base with it. And then- Cool ... , at the end of the week, there's, , a passage.
, It's a decodable passage [00:23:00] except it's, , a morphology passage that has a bunch of those words in it and there's- Neat ... it looks , , word sorting and all these word-building and all these kind of things, the hands-on for the students to do. Yeah. I don't fully understand every piece of the program 'cause we didn't, see a lesson from start to finish, but it looks really cool.
And if... When we were doing the structured inquiry training last year, that was one of the things I'm so used to explicit instruction with phonics that, , it was hard for me to have that inquiry part of it. Yes. That structured inquiry where it was , okay, there is no scope and sequence.
We're just gonna go randomly. And I just... I'm not ready for that. I might be at some point, but I'm not. But- , I-I- No ... I want a structured morphology program, and this one has it. And then I think I'll still include some of the inquiry stuff in it because I want to have the students awaken their curiosity and their engagement in that way.
But I wanna implement- what I always do when I purchase a [00:24:00] curriculum is I do it as it's written, and then I see, okay, where are the students still having questions? Where are they still struggling? And then I pull in extra pieces and modify the method based on where I see the students, , struggling.
Mary Saghafi: Because you're- And so that's what I'm gonna do ... a good teacher. That's what good teachers do, right? You need to use the curriculum to fidelity.
Shannon Betts: Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: Once you know that you've got the whole process down, then you can make those accommodations. Sentence composing.
Shannon Betts: You know what I'm saying? I did it regular for all the other students, and then the one student, I was , "Oh, he needs these blocks." You know what I'm saying? Or they need the word list,
Mary Saghafi: okay, first of all, I'm very excited about, , this new word origins- ... curric- ,
Shannon Betts: curriculum. Yes. It is a curriculum. It's gonna be a curriculum.
, A full-on curriculum. It's - You'll be- ... from third through sixth grade.
Mary Saghafi: I'm, so I'm actually taking a course right now, , and it is, it's called, , Word Inquiry in Action. Okay. And it is through the word TORQUE, - I guess you would call it a company web page. , And the woman who has been running the [00:25:00] Word Torque, , web page for a long time is very steeped in, , structured word inquiry.
, So she's created a series of kind of small... They're not really mini. I guess you could call them mini lessons, because they're really, , kind of bite-sized PD, which is great, actually. But the one that I just finished was such a fantastic one, and it's establishing routines that stick. So along with the curriculum, I think having a really solid routine helps tremendously, right?
, So this school, , which is most, So the three, , modules that I've already completed are actually by people who are in Australia- Okay ... , which is cool. But the, it, there's also other people who are presenting. , Anna Geiger's presenting, , more about the science of reading, and then there's some other modules that kind of tie into this, , word inquiry.
But, , what I really loved was they showed in all the different grade levels what the predictability and [00:26:00] expectations for efficiency and then expectations for independence of the students looked , and they had a routine that actually went throughout the entire school. And it was so great because the students knew this is how we're going to break down words, and the routine lasted maybe, , 10 minutes total for each class and looked different in each class but had those same tenants of, , okay, the predictability of the lesson is essential.
So here's what- I think
Shannon Betts: the Word Origins has that, where they, , break up the phonics- I think too ... piece of the, of each word. Then they break up the morphemes of each word. It's , yeah, there are specific steps for those h- hook words. Yes. And then the application piece.
Mary Saghafi: I was just looking through, , because I haven't actually received the entire full syllabus.
They give it to you, , weekly and give you s- ... four or five modules. And so I hadn't seen anything specifically about w- , the Word Origins yet, but I'm curious 'cause I wonder if this, ... It's a month-long professional development with, , these little kind of bite-sized modules, so I'm wondering what the next couple weeks are gonna bring.
I could [00:27:00] imagine that maybe they're gonna be doing a m- more bigger introduction to the Word Origins. So I'll keep you posted. You're gonna this.
Shannon Betts: I'm looking at the UFLI Word Origins info page right now. And there's, , a couple frequently asked questions, and one of them says, "Where does Word Origins come from?"
The Dyslexia S-P-E-L-D Foundation is a nonprofit that supports families and education in Australia and throughout Asia. DSF developed the Word Origins program- ... in response to the needs of students and their teachers
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Mary Saghafi: Want to go a little deeper with us? This season, we're continuing to share exclusive bonus episodes just for our paid subscribers. This season, those bonus episodes will feature conversations with real reading teachers in the field talking honestly about their instruction and their students' learning needs.
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We'd love to have you join the conversation. ,
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Mary Saghafi: So another kind of interesting thing that's happening with me personally that ties into this is that I have a student who is in first grade right now going into second grade who needs a lot of support through explicit phonics instruction but writing especially, and they are moving to Australia.
Shannon Betts: Oh, [00:29:00] wow.
Mary Saghafi: Yeah. , They're... Right now, , the dad is working, , over there most of the time. But I've had so many conversations with Mom about how great I have found support to be from Australians, , related to this, and that I've done a lot of studying. Phonics, they seem to just be a little bit ahead of the curve.
With phonics and now morphology, yeah. Yes.
Shannon Betts: I'm so excited.
Mary Saghafi: So isn't that cool?
Shannon Betts: It is cool. Yeah. It seems a lot of us, , have been looking for this, - ... that we need a little bit more structure with some of our, , morphology. -
Mary Saghafi: I think I have felt this way since the beginning of my teaching career.
- ... yes, I want to get good at it, but how do I even get good at it? I can't just pull it from the ethos. And I think that's the other hard part about being a teacher is that you have to really be an expert in your subject, and maybe you weren't taught to be the expert in your subject, right?
That's even why we started this in the first place.
Shannon Betts: This is what the Word Origins is gonna have. , The Word [00:30:00] Origins manual, that's wh- that's what's gonna be for preorder soon. Okay. , It's gonna have complete lesson plans, student resources, and assessment materials Each level of the Word Origins program follows an engaging 30-minute, nine-step lesson routine so that it is that predictable routine- Yay
which includes the following: explicit morphology instruction, spelling activities, word building activities, vocabulary support, connect- connected text, inter-leave-ed, interleaved practice.
Mary Saghafi: Interleaving.
Shannon Betts: Inter- okay, but it's E-D, but inter-
Mary Saghafi: Oh. Oh, maybe.
Shannon Betts: Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: So the interleaving is, , giving students the opportunity to try it on their own, and then teaching something else, and then coming back and circling it around.
Shannon Betts: Oh, cool. , If it was export, they would look for other- ... they would build other words that had port and things that. Yes. Okay. Companion materials include lesson slide decks. Yay. I love the lesson slide decks of UFLI. Love that. printable morpheme tiles. Yay. [00:31:00] Yay. And printable student materials.
That's great. And the program is appropriate, , for tier one instruction. , And it didn't say. They said it was for, , level three through six. They don't say it on this website, but that's what they said in the training. So- and, Oh, grades three and up. Grades three and up ...
Mary Saghafi: so I haven't actually had a chance to collaborate with this other teacher.
, But one of the fourth grade teachers at my children's elementary school is taking this course with me 'cause she's really interested in structured word inquiry. So I am going to help her develop this, and then hopefully we can get that, , UFLI program, , in the elementary school, tier one instruction.
Oh, that would be awesome.
Shannon Betts: That would be really awesome. Love that. I'm very excited about it. I'm gonna pre-order, , the first day it's available, yeah. Ooh. , That's mainly what's going on. , If you've noticed, we haven't been on social media a whole lot lately. It's just come spring here in Atlanta, I've just been in the garden a lot.
I just don't wanna be at my computer. I wanna be outside,
Mary Saghafi: [00:32:00] I hear you. I am, ... I feel I have actually been in front of my computer, but not able to do
Shannon Betts: At least your computer looks out at your garden in the front. I-
Mary Saghafi: that's true. I do try to get as much natural light as I can, even if I'm just sitting in this chair.
Good. , But no, I've just been doing a lot of, , , learning about what's happening in d- different school areas, and I'm noticing that there are some big divides between school districts who are really well-versed in the science of reading and others who are not . And- Okay, so
Shannon Betts: it's trickling d- different places Just divided.
Yeah. , There wa- d- what's going on with that Georgia bill about the science of reading and everything?
Mary Saghafi: So this is interesting. , In Georgia, we are using, , an assessment, and it was the bill that determined that each, , student in grades K through two would be, , screened for dyslexia. And
Shannon Betts: that got passed a couple years ago.
Mary Saghafi: Yes. And , this was the first year that this assessment was rolled out. Okay. , So [00:33:00] it's called AMIRA, and it's a national standardized based assessment.
Shannon Betts: And it's a screener for dyslexia or reading dys-
Mary Saghafi: Correct ... difficulties. Yep. , And so I've had the opportunity to look at a few, a few of the results, and I have mixed feelings about it because I don't think I quite understand it.
I will see kids who have, , big gaps in their foundational skills, , and are really having trouble, , applying these foundational skills, and their reading is really... they just have these gaps, and they're not necessarily getting flagged, , for the, from the AMIRA test. So I'm , interested to see- what some of the other feedback from this year is, 'cause I only have these, , individual data pieces that I can see. , I am wondering if the instruction might be really strong in a, in some of these schools that I'm seeing it, , and the student is able to pass the test, but they just might not be connecting all of the dots just yet.
, Or [00:34:00] they're still , low average, and that low average is not necessarily flagging for dyslexia. So I'm I'm very skeptical about it at the moment. I do think that the teachers have had a lot more professional development on what needs to, , be happening in these- ... in these classrooms, and I'm seeing a lot of strong tier one instruction in a lot of schools, and really good supports tier two and tier three.
So that's been really good. , But I also feel there's a lot of parents that are noticing, , that their students are having trouble engaging and attention is weak, focus is weak, , making sure that they are, , taking ownership for their learning. And, the cool thing about my job is that I don't diagnose kids.
I just provide the support for them- ... and teach parents how to do that. But it's also, , difficult being in a position that as a parent because you wanna know, okay, what's the problem? How do I fix it? And mine is more of a here's what we're [00:35:00] going to do. We're gonna find out where the gaps are, and then we're gonna address that problem.
Shannon Betts: -
Yeah, I have seen, , some of the students, , that I see for tutoring, , , they might have a strong phonics program at their school , , Fundations or UFLI, but they're getting lost in the shuffle of the unison responses and stuff where- Yeah ... the student is mimicking that they're being part of the program, but they're not actually mastering what's being taught, and so they're getting left behind, , the pacing of the rest of the class.
, But no, I was also asking about, , I heard that there was a Georgia bill this session about implementing, , , science of reading- So- ... as part of legislation in Georgia as well, a lot of states have done.
Mary Saghafi: I don't know, actually, if that, that has, , it-
Shannon Betts: I didn't know if it passed. I need to look into it or something.
Mary Saghafi: I don't know if it has passed yet either. -
Shannon Betts: But it sounds , at least in some of the places where we are in the Atlanta area, that in response to the dyslexia law that is finally, c- is it being implemented years after being passed, the natural c- thing after that was that, , districts are choosing science of [00:36:00] reading-aligned materials to be part of the curriculum for the district.
So that was a natural byproduct of that dyslexia law, even though it might not have been part of that law. But not everybody's doing that, you're saying. And so I think maybe Georgia is also following what other states have done, where they're trying to legislate that statewide. The only thing is, I know, is that, , , there are some good curriculums, I think, that are not, , approved science of reading curriculums, 'cause it's, , it's a...
Mary Saghafi: I think it's a little bit challenging because what... There are some opt-in options for some curriculum that- Yeah ... are, , either choosing not to have the, full evaluation. And the evaluation that we're talking about is accredited through IDA, which is- ... , international Dyslexia Association.
, Having an accreditation through IDA is really great. There is a Georgia handbook, and the handbook , outlines what makes, , these science of reading, , curriculum or these curriculums aligned with science of reading, and [00:37:00] then there's also some best practices. So I think that hand-in-hand, because this law is now implemented and in effect, there are, there's a lot more awareness, there's a lot more curiosity and understanding about what should be happening and what that looks .
Part of it, I think, is that- administration either knows it or they don't know it. They're e- they're naturally curious about it, or i- it's not, , something that is really, , a high priority on their list. And I'm not saying that in a down play- no.
Shannon Betts: I've had administrators, maybe that have come from the high school level, and so they just don't quite understand- that was where their- They don't understand ... teaching experience was, so they don't quite understand, -
Mary Saghafi: Yeah, that's really what I'm- ...
Shannon Betts: foundational skills. Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: So you can really tell when, an administrator really pushes and puts forth the professional development towards their teachers school-wide to have a better understanding, or encourages a lot of other, ...
so anyway, I do think that it's more readily available. So I do see some mixed reviews right now.
Shannon Betts: Okay.
Mary Saghafi: [00:38:00] A healthily a healthy skepticism, , because... But I do see this other kind of piece of it that is impacting math. And so there's, , some lack of fluency in number sense, and there's some lack of understanding of place value.
And a lot of, not a lot, but I'm also seeing that there are some kids, as there always have been, who are really lacking in fluency in their math-
Shannon Betts: The facts ... as well. I'm doing that specifically with one of my students.
Mary Saghafi: And they-
Shannon Betts: And I pulled out my old Math Their Way materials that I had done- Oh
training on bajillion years ago.
Mary Saghafi: Oh, man. Yes. I am actually doing some similar tasks to what I would do when I'm working with my OG kids with phonics. It's interesting, but we do a lot of rote counting. We are counting forwards and backwards, and we're noticing patterns and skip counting. , But I have a couple students right now who are really struggling [00:39:00] with just numbers in general.
Shannon Betts: I can send you the multiple songs. I had a- Oh, that's cool ... a teacher- Yeah, I love always- Yeah ... doing the multiple songs ... , eIP teacher that did math in my school. She had made the multiple songs for the students- ... , to, , familiar tunes. Yeah. And she taught the students, - She trained the entire school, , when they got their scratch paper for the state test, - I know exactly what you're gonna say
they would write the multiples, , she's - Yeah ... "Don't write the 10s, but, , go ahead and, , four on or three on. Write the multiples." Oh. It's gonna... She got them trained to do it within, , two minutes for the whole thing. It's 3, 6, 9, 12, blah, blah, blah.
Mary Saghafi: I must have met that person, because I was doing that when I was teaching fourth grade as well, and I was...
We worked so hard third, fourth, and fifth grade, especially getting ready for Milestone, - 'Cause
Shannon Betts: then they could just refer to that sheet when they were doing, , fractions and things that, and it was so much easier.
Mary Saghafi: I don't know if the person that you're thinking of did this, but we just called it a brain dump.
You're gonna brain dump all those facts- Okay ... so that you can use them as a near reference. Nice. That's how we... Yeah. , So I [00:40:00] do that. I'm, , I'm following-
Shannon Betts: I'm doing number bonds with my students too, so I'm also doing, , their little worksheets where it'll have, , one of the facts that's missing.
It might be the missing- Yes ... , minuend, subtrahend, or difference, or it might be the missing addend or sum, and they have to fill in the one that's missing. And I want them to see that for backwards and forwards, that, - Yes ... 6, 8, 14. Those just- I'm- ... go together
Mary Saghafi: I'm even working backwards on subitizing with a second grader, and- Ooh ... , we're doing-
Shannon Betts: Describe what subitizing is for people that don't know.
Mary Saghafi: So subitizing is when you see a, an amount of something and you can generally estimate how much that is by finding groups. So if you see a group of pennies and you can automatically see five pennies, and then you see another group of three pennies, you recognize that five and that three together is eight.
Or if you're looking at it, , on a 10 frame, , which would have five boxes on the top, five boxes on the s- the bottom, you have kids have that automatic recognition that five and two is seven.
And they should be able to [00:41:00] automatically do that. So we're working within 20 right now to do subitizing as well, using 10 frames and then other amounts.
, But number bonds, , there's a teacher that I've been following on Instagram who I just love. It's Aubrey Teaches. Okay. And she models math amazingly and is really generous with her resources. , But her way of really modeling through how she teaches math intervention is fantastic, and I also love she's super, , great about boundaries.
She's , "Listen, I don't have time to respond to all these messages. I am a full-time teacher." "I'm just sharing my resources," and I just, I love her. That's nice. She's keeping it real. , Just how she just puts it out there. It's fantastic.
Shannon Betts: Okay. I'ma look her up. Thank you.
Mary Saghafi: Oh, she's fantastic.
So yeah. So that's been really great. So I've been doing, - that's how I've been keeping up with stuff lately
Shannon Betts: The reason I'm doing the facts with the student is 'cause I had moved on to regrouping with the student, but [00:42:00] then- same ... we were struggling with the subtraction because we were having to, if you re- the student could regroup actually correctly, 'cause we had done a lot of place value before then.
But then when it was 12 minus 9, or whatever, or let's say it was - There's the
Mary Saghafi: two and the-
Shannon Betts: 72 minus 19 or something ... you need to regroup You know what I'm saying? So then we're regrouping or whatever, and then in the ones it was 12 minus 9. L- then we were, , pulling out fingers and drawing sticks and circles, and I was , so we're almost done with the facts. , We only have to do 13 and f- no, 14 and 15. I actually jumped, , f- , from 11 and 12 to, , 16 on because- ... I wanted to show the student, you know the six facts already. What are the six facts? What are the seven facts? So then we just added the 10 to it. So we knew that if 3 and 4 is 7, then 13 plus 4 and 14 plus 3, and so on.
So it was actually very easy to learn all the teen facts.
Mary Saghfi: Oh, awesome. ,
Shannon Betts: And I'd skipped 19. I- we're not even doing the 19 ones because 19 is not gonna show up in regrouping. So I [00:43:00] feel , it's close enough to 20 that anyway.
Mary Saghafi: I think that all of these, , these things are just so critical, these foundational skills that, , you really need to grasp on.
But it's amazing how you can, , learn how their brain is really processing and what works best for them. So-
...
Mary Saghafi: In the same way, , I've noticed that my student who's having trouble with regrouping, having trouble with counting and skip counting, her ability to visualize numbers is very weak.
And so- Which is why you're doing
Shannon Betts: that subitizing page
Mary Saghafi: What I notice is that she's very procedural based, and so she can do step by step, but she's not understanding the basic concept of what we're talking about. So then, and I think this is true for so many students, you start seeing the word problems, and then you think it's a comprehension problem.
I think it's not. It is a comprehension problem, but it's an understanding the concept through comprehension problem because-
Shannon Betts: I do that with my kids. Little plus little equals big, and big- That's right ... take away little equals little. , That is a huge concept [00:44:00] that a lot of- Well- ... students don't understand, and then they look at the word problem and I'm , "Are you trying to get a bigger number or a smaller number?"
Mary Saghafi: And even sometimes what they'll do is, "Okay, but I want to do the standard algorithm. What are the numbers that I should plug in for the standard algorithm?" And- If you don't have a concept for if, even if it's bigger or smaller- ... it's really are you making the group of something?
, Is it a part-part-whole? Or are you regrouping? Yeah. And so that's determining whether you are doing division or multiplication, or if you're adding or subtracting, and so many kids struggle with this. So I did see that this map that Aubrey Teaches has is really powerful. And first question she asks is, , is this, , y- is it this type of question?
And then what is a strategy or what is the information that you know? And you literally just write down the information, so five-
Shannon Betts: Just the givens that are in the problem. ...
Mary Saghafi: And then it encourages using a drawing or a visualizing strategy [00:45:00] instead of going to the standard algorithm. Okay. And I think that's the part that the kids are missing so much, is that they just know to go to the standard algorithm.
And that part is important if you can conceptualize it, but if you are not there yet and you're in a classroom and the teacher is working together with a whole group, and even if you're working on your own whiteboard, you can notice that there are some kids who are writing the standard algorithm, and then they put their answer up in the air, and you're ready to move on.
If you don't have that concept, you don't even know what question to ask first.
You're
gonna just copy down that standard algorithm 'cause, oh, somebody said more, so I know that this is an adding problem. Okay, here we go. I don't wanna stand out. But then when they're left to their own devices, it just all falls apart.
Shannon Betts: And I know a lot of people, , complained, , Common Core math, you know- ... it's silly, but, , I know that the math was developed, their standards when they were redone, was to make sure that the students did have that conceptualization. Agreed. That's why there's, , these different methods that are different [00:46:00] than when we were in school- Yes
in the '80s and '90s and were only taught the standard algorithms, , but because, , a problem might be asked a different way, they're wanting to make sure the students understand it backwards, forwards, sideways. My argument- And that's only by doing it with, , with the visuals.
Mary Saghafi: My argument is that w- we can't teach this in large groups. I think we really need to have smaller sizes so that the teacher can actually monitor understanding, , in a reasonable way. And y- the other thing is that there are lots of concepts that happen in math just the w- same way that they happen in reading.
And I'm not comparing those subjects, but I'm just saying we already know that we have to break down and understand the, , the number sense and processing. Similar to if you don't have this f- phonological awareness and breaking down the different sounds and understanding how that relates- so we need to spend more time on that- Foundational skills-
Shannon Betts: in the math [00:47:00] program ... both subjects. Yeah.
Mary Saghafi: So anyway, that's my soapbox that I'm , diving deeper into right now.
Shannon Betts: I think it's fascinating that we both were working on sentence composing and math with our students, - Me too ... and we both enjoy it. , We could go on and on, but I think we need to end for our- I agree
for our listeners. , And hopefully we'll just catch up another time in real life.
Mary Saghafi: I hope so too.
Shannon Betts: , Thanks for joining us this season. , We're ending it a little early so that y'all can get caught up on the old episodes. I noticed still season seven, , there's a lot of episodes that are great in season seven that people have missed- I think because, it was a short time frame between the end of season seven and the start of season eight.
Mary Saghfi: And so-
true ...
Shannon Betts: we're gonna remind y'all about those good episodes so you can get caught up, and give you a little more time in between the end of this season and the beginning of next season.
- Sounds great ... and thanks for joining us with Reading Teacher's Lounge.
Mary Saghafi: All right. Till next time.